Things that I LOVED:

- Babs survived against all odds. This is honestly one of the main reasons why I cannot be too disappointed in this season after all. Plus, all of my other faves made it and -- more or less -- had their own happy end.

- The initial setup: The Gotham turf war, Walker as the mysterious "friend", and the difficulty to get aid from the mainland. Like last season, basically, I thought the season opener had so many interesting directions to go. And then they used pretty much none of that potential. But that doesn't change the fact that the first few episodes genuinely excited me.

- 5x08 as, IMO, the best character-centric episode this season. To be more specific, I'm talking about the Harvey parts. But I also appreciated Oswald's realization that he isn't a good friend. Not that this rare moment of self-reflection lasted very long, of course.

- Babs and Lee. If they had cancelled the show after the fourth season, it would have been a huge loss just for all the Babs/Lee bonding. And, of course: Barbara Lee. <333

- The Zsasz fanservice in 5x04.

- J's transformation in the series finale. 

- Oswald's hair finally looked good this season. It had its moments that season -- most notably, for me, 4x08 --, but it just generally looked nice most of the time?!


Things that I liked (with reservations):

- 5x11. I didn't love Jim's "You didn't listen to me!!1" spiel, but I can appreciate the fact that Lee and Babs got to stand with Jim and the others. It was powerful and worked well as a season resolution.

- The Ed mystery. I love mysteries. This one would have been more satisfying if the clues had tied together more reasonably.

What was even the intention behind the Penguin was here graffiti? In that vein, it made little sense that the rest of the Street Demons joined forces with Oswald in 5x03. I also find it hard to believe that Oswald wouldn't have made sure that all was well with Ed after Strange's procedure. Not to mention the stupidly unnecessary way in which Eduardo revealed Strange's involvement with the military to Jim in 5x05.

Having said all that, I believe that Strange, the chip twist was a lot better than I thought it would be. Nothing remarkable, but believable at least in all its wackiness. One last major disappointment: They completely left out what the loss of the Ed part of him meant for The Riddler.

- The Haven bombing. Technically, it's a part of the Ed mystery, but I also liked it as a general plot point. My only real complaint: The loss of Will Thomas should have mattered more. As an important emotional beat in 5x09, it would have made sense to lead up to it and let Jim process some of that grief and guilt on-screen. With Lee in 5x06, it felt like too little, too late.

- Oswald and Selina. Talk about an odd pair. Loved it. Especially because Selina didn't lose her bite for even one second re: the loss of Tabitha.

- Selina and Bruce. Don't ship them, but they got some sweet moments this season.

- Bruce and Alfred. Those two should have a lot more scenes together. It didn't help that, for whatever reason, Jeremiah went after Jim and Lee and not Alfred in 5x07.

- Bruce and Jeremiah. The gay jumped out!

- Lee and Alfred in 5x09. <3

- Oswald and Ed.

- Lucius. He should have gotten an award at the end for all the helpful shit he pulled throughout this season.

- Edward the Dog. Only in the "like" category because Ed left him in the submarine.

- Jeremiah. Really loved the Zorro bit, disliked the Wayne manor/tunnel bombing and the Jim/Lee kidnapping. Liked Ecco well enough.

- Bane. I liked him more than I thought I would. But, goddamn, he was super boring apart from all the friendly eye-fucking with Jim at the start. Sadly, his "backstory" with Jim added nothing truly juicy to the plot.


Things that I disliked:

- Jim was a self-righteous douchecanoe for the majority of the season, particularly to Babs and Harv.

- Jim/Lee. Not saying that they generally don't work as a couple. They just didn't work like this with a slap-kiss and a rushed "marriage". Meh.

- Babs's pregnancy. Why the hell would she saddle herself with a child while the city is in chaos?!

- Oswald's wannabe-dictator arc. He was ineffective and self-sabotaging as usual.

- Everything about 5x12 except for J's appearance. For more specific complaints, please look into the respective episode discussion post.

- All the unnecessary monster-of-the-week episodes. When I say "unnecessary", I mean "this screentime could have been used to flesh out the No Man's Land plot more." They clearly had no idea how and/or intention to work with the setting.

- The fact that we never got to see how Jim dealt with the Zsasz/Firefly/Freeze/Scarecrow territories.

- Ivy. Thought she wasn't used well this season.

 
Things that I HATED:

- Tabitha's death. :(

- The Selina recast in 5x12.

- The ableist bullshit about Selina's paralysis in the first two episodes of the season.

- Nyssa. Her motivation made absolutely no sense to me. Why go after Jim in the first half of the season when it was always about Bruce and Babs? For example, it would have made more sense to also hit Babs's food reserves. 


Edited 2019-05-12 11:44 am (UTC)

" Babs survived against all odds. This is honestly one of the main reasons why I cannot be too disappointed in this season after all. Plus, all of my other faves made it and -- more or less -- had their own happy end."
Concur. I really thought she was gonna bite it. So happy she survived and thrived.

"I thought the season opener had so many interesting directions to go. And then they used pretty much none of that potential. But that doesn't change the fact that the first few episodes genuinely excited me."
Agreed.

"5x08 as, IMO, the best character-centric episode this season. To be more specific, I'm talking about the Harvey parts."
HARD AGREE. I was so surprised to get that gem of an episode so late in the game, too. Harvey BREAKS MY HEART in it.

"- The Ed mystery. I love mysteries. This one would have been more satisfying if the clues had tied together more reasonably."
Yeah, this was fun. I felt they dragged it out a bit more than it merited perhaps, but I liked it. I also loved the resulting Ed and Lucius team up.

"What was even the intention behind the Penguin was here graffiti?"
It feels like that was maybe left over from some other plot direction they no longer had time to go in..?

"Having said all that, I believe that Strange, the chip twist was a lot better than I thought it would be."
I honestly think that the strength of the characters/actors carries a lot of weak plot. And Strange is always awesome.

"- The Haven bombing."
That was a super gut-punch. Was NOT expecting it. Agreed on Will though - we all saw Will's death coming, but they really did gloss over it in terms of how it affected Jim. I guess perhaps it did explain his frankly irrational bad behaviour afterwards though..?


"- Oswald and Selina. (...) Selina and Bruce."
Both cute af. In fact, Selina gets some cracking character development this season come to think of it. Make the finale recast even worse :\

I can only agree on all your likes... except maybe Bane. Bane left me totally, utterly, cold, and I freaking HATED Eduardo (yes, mainly because he apparently made Jim suddenly bench Harvey all the time like a complete dick.)

"Jim was a self-righteous douchecanoe for the majority of the season, particularly to Babs and Harv."
AMEN. PREACH.

Again, can only agree on all your hates/dislikes. Except perhaps the 'monster of the week' stuff, because whilst I fully agree that they wasted screentime a bit, I really love monster of the week stuff in general, and also it brought us that wonderful Jane Doe and Harvey episode, which I felt was one of the strongest of the season. Also, loved the random exploration into the dark zone - because exploration is fun! Just wish there had been more episodes to play stuff out in tbh.

It feels like that was maybe left over from some other plot direction they no longer had time to go in..?

It was kind of resolved with the Street Demons trying to seek revenge on Oswald in 5x03, but I think the whole thing got torpedoed by the uber-silly way in which suddenly all of Oswald's men just ~conveniently jumped ship.

In the episode, Oswald argues for a collaboration with the Demons because Jim Gordon is luring people from every territory in Gotham including yours. However, in my eyes, it would have made a lot more sense if he'd simply framed Jim/the GCPD for killing the Street Demons leader. You know... or something.

I guess perhaps it did explain his frankly irrational bad behaviour afterwards though..?

I really thought that 5x04 would lead to... something. That something, obviously, not being "sleeping with Babs in the Captain's office".

In fact, Selina gets some cracking character development this season come to think of it. Make the finale recast even worse :/

Yeah, this was a strong season for her. A true shame that we couldn't get the original in the series finale.

Bane left me totally, utterly, cold,

I've always irrationally disliked the actor, so the fact that I could stand Eduardo/Bane here means something. But, yeah, definitely one of the more colorless Gotham villains. For shame.

I really love monster of the week stuff in general, and also it brought us that wonderful Jane Doe and Harvey episode, which I felt was one of the strongest of the season.

That was the only time where I will generously say that a monster-of-the-week episode was totally warranted! ;)

Also, loved the random exploration into the dark zone - because exploration is fun! Just wish there had been more episodes to play stuff out in tbh.

Loved that one, too! I just didn't like that the connection between the Soothsayers and Jeremiah was never really focused on.

Sleeping with Babs just still seems so utterly, utterly ooc to me. I mean, I believe he's that much of an arsehole, but also, I don't believe he'd do that.

Yeah, the Jeremiah/Soothsayers connection was random.

I guess, otherwise, we wouldn't have gotten a Babs Gordon?! I mean, TPTB could have let Babs die as a martyr so Lee and Jim name their baby after her, but that would have destroyed any love I have left for the show...

Well, yes, absolutely - I think we both heartily agree on how the baby situation could have been much worse if they'd killed her off.

...and I'm in love.



Edited 2019-05-12 08:53 am (UTC)

It's seeing edits like this when I can totally SEE Commissioner Gordon, yep... (they really missed an opportunity in that finale...)

YES. :( I have a lot of feelings about being denied even just a hint of grey hair.

♦What are your thoughts on Gotham's fifth season? Any particular highlights or disappointments?
I personally loved it, but I was a pretty late convert to Gotham, and I freely admit I have low expectations of shows. That said, it definitely wasn't even close to my favourite season. Highlights I think were the initial set-up of No Man's Land - I love that 'forlorn hope' type scenario, and post-apocalyptic, lawless feel. I loved the initial few episodes of the season. Disappointments were the way it all ended up playing out, that godawful baby plot, and how much of a cop-out the final episode felt.

♦ Do you have thoughts on the show as a whole? Any missed opportunities?
God, I love this show. Missed opportunities - I mean, at first I was weirdly happy that it was ending at 5, and was finite, instead of carrying on infinitely and getting more and more diluted, but now I'm really gutted it didn't run to 7 seasons. There were so many under-utilised characters, and character arcs that could have done with being played out further (Zsasz, Ivy, Firefly, Freeze.)

♦ Which season/episode/plot did you enjoy/hate the most?
Bruce doing his zen training bored the shit out of me. I mean, tbh, a lot of Bruce stuff bored me a little. The Ra's al Ghul stuff also started to grate on my nerves. I hated, HATED the whole Babs getting pregnant plot - it was dumb af and seemed super ooc. Season 1 and 2 with the Mafia stuff sticks fondly in my mind. I really loved all the Fish plots, she was a total baller. Loved Jim in Blackgate and Harv rescuing him from Blackgate. Loved Jim being a bounty hunter and a PI. Tetch always kinda grated on my nerves, but I like him better on the rewatch. Hated Theo Galavan the first time round too, but again, he didn't seem so bad after Ra's, lol. Generally, the parts I liked best were any parts where there's an element of comedy. Zsasz is always gold.

♦ Who are your favorite characters and how did you like their development?
Do I even need to say, lol? I was just grateful that Harvey survived tbh, I'm so used to my favourites getting canned. I... understood, his development, and I found it well written and excellently portrayed. A little sad, though. As much as the trash part of me loved him clearly pining after Jim in a totally platonic bro way I'm sure, the greater part of me wished he'd stuck up for himself emotionally just a little more. I'd like to have seen him happy in the finale, back in a relationship even if he wasn't back at the bar or anything. That said, the way he starts out this (gloriously) disgusting, corrupt boor and slowly gets revealed as totally soft-hearted, corrupt only out of necessity, and becomes gradually more and more noble as Jim becomes gradually less and less moral, is really nicely done. He's a beautifully nuanced character.
I also truly think Lucius deserved better. More character development, more screen time. He's the one truly GOOD character in the whole show, and he saves everyone's arses time and time again, and yet he's virtually a mystery...


♦ Who are your favorite actors? Can you think of some of your favorite performances on the show?
Oh, guess :p Donal Logue steals every scene. Also, even though Penguin isn't quite my favourite character on the show, RLT does such an epic job of portraying him - every little facial tic and gnashing of teeth is perfect. I actually can't think of any poor performance on this show. I'm also gonna mention BD Wong for the most fabulous, camp Hugo Strange - he just oozes that character and it's glorious. I love how so many of the actors really seem to REVEL in their performances. You can tell how much fun they had.

♦ Any moments that cracked your shit up, that had you on the edge of your seat, that made you facepalm hard?
"What's altruism?" is possibly my favourite moment in any show ever. Zsasz under Ivy's spell. Headhunter's entire existence. I'm sure there's a million other things that made me laugh, intentionally or otherwise.
Edge of seat - ah, the bit where Bruce thinks it's Alfred driven mad by the fear toxin and he starts cutting his face off... that made me wince. Harvey captured by Pyg wasn't a fun watch for me first time round. And the dollmaker experimenting on people genuinely upset me a little. I'm typically not great with body horror.
Facepalm - every single time Jim Gordon gets laid. It never gets any less cringeworthy. Notable mention to Babs in S5 and the Lee slap/kiss in S5. Excruciating.

♦ Last but not least: Are you up for a much-needed rewatch? ;)
Always!

That said, it definitely wasn't even close to my favourite season.

Haha, yeah, definitely not. Also not the worst for me.


but now I'm really gutted it didn't run to 7 seasons.

Me too. :'( With that kind of premise, they should have gotten a full season order to wrap everything up nicely.

There were so many under-utilised characters, and character arcs that could have done with being played out further (Zsasz, Ivy, Firefly, Freeze.)

So sad we didn't even see a hint of Freeze and Firefly. :(


Bruce doing his zen training bored the shit out of me. I mean, tbh, a lot of Bruce stuff bored me a little.

That shit is one of the main reasons why I hated s3 the most. But, who knows, maybe a rewatch can change my mind on that.


Season 1 and 2 with the Mafia stuff sticks fondly in my mind.

*nods and sighs in content*


Zsasz is always gold.

YES! (In an alternate universe in my mind in which Tabitha lives, those two totally team up.)


He's a beautifully nuanced character.

<3 Also agreed that it would have been nice to see him in a happy relationship.


I also truly think Lucius deserved better.

Yeah. :(


I'm also gonna mention BD Wong for the most fabulous, camp Hugo Strange - he just oozes that character and it's glorious.

Good choice. Cheers!


I love how so many of the actors really seem to REVEL in their performances. You can tell how much fun they had.

This show wouldn't be half as watchable without its stellar cast. :D


Facepalm - every single time Jim Gordon gets laid. It never gets any less cringeworthy.

Haha, yes! I think I found him and Sofia worse than him and Babs this season.


Always!

When would you like to start? And how many episodes per week? I've never done a rewatch with other people, that's why I'm asking.

Edited 2019-05-13 04:48 pm (UTC)

Mmm, I can't really say which season is my least favourite I don't think, because I've really liked all of them... but yeah, I think that plotline, and he Ra's plotlines in general, are my least favourite, so I guess 3 for me as well.

I'm currently re-watching alongside a friend and I keep forgetting stuff from earlier seasons, like, man, how AWFUL they all were in S1, lol. Penguin was THE WORST. The first time we see Zsasz, he's just HORRIBLE :D Also, completely forgot Jim and Harv having an all-out fist fight in 1x7.

"In an alternate universe in my mind in which Tabitha lives, those two totally team up."
I am fully here for this spin-off.

"Haha, yes! I think I found him and Sofia worse than him and Babs this season."
Idk. I've found every instance of him with ladies to be absolutely excruciating. The only time I was remotely on board for it was S1 Jim and Babs - they were cute. But as soon as he got with Lee, he just lost his game entirely.

"When would you like to start? And how many episodes per week? I've never done a rewatch with other people, that's why I'm asking."
OK, well - as I said, I'm currently rewatching with another friend. We're only doing 1 ep a week and we're up to S1E8 now, so if you'd like to watch along with us then that could work? But I understand if that's too slow a pace.

Just answering the rewatch portion of your comment rn: One episode per week seems doable! Since I'm anal like that, how do you think should we go about the episode discussion threads? A thread per episode/week? And maybe a thread for episode 1 to 8 to catch up on that too?

Yeah, I reckon so - a catch-up thread for 1-8 and then one per episode a week? Tbh I have a horrible memory even with multiple rewatches (this is my third watch of S1 and I'd still totally forgotten Jim and Harv have an actual fist fight in the locker room, or that Zsasz shoots an officer dead in cold blood) so a thread a week will be helpful to me.

Oh, and I usually watch on Sunday nights.

Edited 2019-05-21 05:38 pm (UTC)

I will put a thread up within the next couple of days! I also do have a terrible episode memory and couldn't tell you anything about the early s1 episodes even though I have probably rewatched them more than anything else from the show, lol.

A complaint: This season's over-reliance on mind-control with Nyssa (Ed's mystery arc, Lee, General Wade), Jervis (5x07), and Ivy (5x09).

For one, it's lazy. Secondly, it overpowers the villains in a way that makes it hard to believe that they can be defeated so easily -- the prime example for this being the Ivy/Lee fight in 5x09.

In retrospect, I also don't understand why Jeremiah didn't let people be hypnotized in order to dig his tunnel. That way, little Will Thomas could have never fled to the GCPD territory. It also makes me wonder why -- if Jeremiah had acquired the service of Jervis Tetch all along -- why he even needed his "disciples" in the first place. Sure, it was fun and a great way to introduce new!Ecco, but did it actually serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things?

Secondly, I wonder if Eduardo/Bane could have been a more interesting character if he'd also been chipped by Nyssa. What if the Eduardo Jim knew had been an honorable man? How would Jim have reacted to see the drastic changes in his person? Would he have wanted to save him from Nyssa and himself? To me, that could have made Jim a lot more sympathetic this season and given their backstory/friendship more nuance.

Also, the small Jim/Harv rift would have made more sense if we assume that Harv has doubts about Eduardo's true motives whereas Jim tries to believe in him until the point of no return. Could also have been an interesting point of conflict: Here's a man Jim chooses to trust until the bitter end, one season after he seemingly gave up on Harv and assumed his position as GCPD Captain. Naturally, for Jim, it would probably be about making up for past mistakes, but I can totally see why it might mean a sting for Harv.


Re: The Nyssa/Bruce connection. I was thinking about how this storyline could have been told more effectively.

Basically, leave the chopper bit as is because it is both an attack on the refugee resources and an attack against Bruce himself. After all, this was a chopper with his men. Then, handle the bombing differently. Ed still shoots the RPG, but at the same time, some of Nyssa's men sabotage Bruce's water purification system and make it look as if it caused the explosion. That the main reason why Ed and Lucius go investigate. Focus on Bruce's guilt over, once more, putting Gothamites in danger with Wayne tech, especially when confronted with a furious, grieving refugee mob.

Lastly, make Lee attack Bruce, not Jim. Or make her attack Jim but with the intention of chipping -- not killing -- him? That way, Nyssa could have used him against Bruce and/or Babs. By framing it in 5x06 as if Jim's death had been Nyssa's end goal all along, it seemed odd that she would later focus her revenge entirely on Bruce and Babs.


(This is the kind of shit I keep thinking about during my commute. I even made notes on my mobile, lol.)

Edited 2019-05-16 07:07 pm (UTC)

Mmm. With you on the laziness of mind-control tropes. A lot of shows seem to have issues with consistency vs not making villains too invincible. I'd not really thought about it here (until we got to the point of the general being mind controlled and I threw my toys a bit, like, come ON, there's no way the mainland govt would allow a whole city to be bombed.) but you're right, it was overused.

"In retrospect, I also don't understand why Jeremiah didn't let people be hypnotized in order to dig his tunnel."
Yeah, the consistency thing.

I love your Bane points, especially regarding how it would explain the Eduardo, Jim and Harv interplay.

I like your Nyssa and Bruce points, too. Wish you'd written it instead! But still, I'm happy with S5 as it stands (except for the few hard nope points.)

Yeah. I guess the whole thing with General Wade would have felt more rewarding if they'd bothered to give the mainland military a face early into the game.

Re: Bane. Jim could have also tried to cling to Eduardo's honor because he feels he couldn't cling onto his own in s4. It would have done a lot to make me forgive his character assassination last season.

Haha, you don't want me to write your fave show! :P

Agreed re: being mostly happy about s5. It wasn't perfect, but 5x11 gives us a pretty nice, open ending and I can live with that. :)