NO BYE D: REWATCHES! ;__;

Definitely rewatches! The complete DVD box-set is (still!) an insta buy for me. It's just a "bye" in the sense that I won't be waking up and have a new, unseen Gotham episode to watch.

I mean, if you ever wanna start a from-the-start rewatch with discussion on here... :p

Ready when you are. :P

Born ready!

Btw, would you (or anyone reading this, really) be interested in a post-series-finale discussion post to reflect on the fifth season as a whole?

Sure thing! Any and all discussion welcomed here!

Ah... I watched it.

I feel kinda deflated because it's the last episode and even if they do a sequel it's not gonna be the same (although damn, I want a sequel covering that interim 10 years...)

It was good. It was fun. It wasn't BRILLIANT but I guess all the tension was relieved last episode soooo it was never gonna be quite so life-or-death, but it was still good.

Stuff I did not care for:

+ Recycled bomb plot was a bit stale but it was brief enough to not be too tedious.

+ I imagine this will be divisive, but I kinda hated the casting for older Selina :\ Like, the actor playing her was objectively excellent, I liked her, she was great, but I just... didn't want a recast. Idk why they couldn't have aged Camren up? People don't change THAT much from, what, 16 to 26?

+ The 'ten years later' changes in general. Out of all of them, I only really believed Ed and Babs, who both managed to look subtly different somehow? Selina and Bruce were literally different people. Oswald's 'weight gain' I'll let slide because it was intended as comic-book comedic - aside from that, he looked pretty convincing. But honestly, most of them looked literally the same and I thought they could have made just a few concessions to the passage of time? Like, a few grey hairs or something? A little tiny bit of aged-up makeup? Jim in glasses, even if they couldn't commit to the 'tache? I guess they're just way committed to everyone being perma-young.

+ I realised in this episode how incredibly dull I find Batman. Oops.

+ I randomly really miss Zsasz.


Stuff I liked:

+ Ed and Os were quality. Proper Adam-West-esque villains. They looked ridiculous yet excellent and their relationship remained weirdly adorable and I don't actually LIKE Batman that much, but their aghast terrified faces at him raised a chuckle from me.

+ Joker was surprisingly brilliant. In retrospect I'm actually really believing his character arc now, and he was great and sinister and I liked him. Also, surprising they really confirmed that he's literally in love with Bruce (I realise they said 'love' and not 'in love' but that kind of obsessive psycho infatuation is generally not ~brotherly~)

+ Babs Jnr was surprisingly un-irritating.

+ Babs Snr is excellent and looks great as a redhead

+ Jim n Lee were also surprisingly un-irritating (but also, ngl, seemed to lack any kind of chemistry... it was a hard sell for me that they'd stay together for ten years but now I can believe they've done it through inertia. Don't they say, don't fall for your romantic lead because then all the chemistry gets channeled into real life rather than the role?)

+ They really over did the LOOK A MOUSTACHE thing with Jim, but it still made me smile, also I wish he'd kept it (except, you know, a more convincing one... hair has never been this show's strong point though?!)

+ Foxyyyy still casually saving everyone's arses like it's no thing.

+ Harperrrrrr <3<3<3 I'm super glad she got some screen time.

+ I'm not happy that Ecco died, but I did enjoy the set-up for Harley - that explains a lot of questions that were being asked.

+ The intro with the music was really cinematic and epic, A+

+ The bat signal bit was nice, and the ending was apt and felt satisfying.

+ HARVEY <3 HARVEY <3 HARVEY <3 I'm thrilled he survived! I'm thrilled he got such a pivotal role in the finale! I'm thrilled he was still doing the wrong thing for the right reasons! Ugh gonna sacrifice himself to Blackgate (not gonna lie, I had moments of actual anxiety over that plotline...) to save Jim's nearest and dearest... Also "give the little one a kiss from Uncle Harvey" <3<3 Also super psyched he got to be standing on the rooftop in that final scene with Jim and Alfred <3 Basically, I'm just happy about Harv. Also goddamn his hair looked good in that ep.

Overall I enjoyed it, but now I'm kinda itching to rewatch some earlier episodes again!

Edit: oh I also loved the usage of one of my favourite songs 'crimson and clover'

Edited 2019-04-26 06:55 pm (UTC)

- I want a sequel covering that interim 10 years...

While I agree, I hate that this would also mean no Oswald or Ed... :/

- Idk why they couldn't have aged Camren up? People don't change THAT much from, what, 16 to 26?

Agreed. Don't see why she couldn't have still played her. Or at least, as a compromise, voiced her dialogue.

- Like, a few grey hairs or something? A little tiny bit of aged-up makeup?

DISAPPOINTED! Because in one promo photo, it totally looked to me as if they'd greyed Jim's hair a bit. Also, yes to the glasses. That's ALL I wanted and all they gave him was this 'tache monstrosity instead.

- I randomly really miss Zsasz.

Skimmed your comment before watching the episode. Only saw his name and was excited. :(

- Also, surprising they really confirmed that he's literally in love with Bruce (I realise they said 'love' and not 'in love' but that kind of obsessive psycho infatuation is generally not ~brotherly~)

Yeah, surprised that they didn't no-homo it. Then again, maybe they thought J's new appearance would deter the shippers? I'm seriously curious if anyone will write fic with him not looking like his pretty boy self.

- but also, ngl, seemed to lack any kind of chemistry...

Yeah. Meh.

- hair has never been this show's strong point though?!

Haha, no.

- Foxyyyy still casually saving everyone's arses like it's no thing.

As always, not enough Lucius Fox.

- Basically, I'm just happy about Harv.

Happy you're happy!

- oh I also loved the usage of one of my favourite songs 'crimson and clover'

Liked that one too, even though Blixa Bargeld's Italian version has ruined the original for me.

"While I agree, I hate that this would also mean no Oswald or Ed... :/"
They'd have to have plot arcs still. Ruling the asylum/prison. Plotting escape. Escaping and being recaptured. Smuggling love letters to one another - I mean, what? :p

"Or at least, as a compromise, voiced her dialogue."
So much this! I agree, the voice jarred for me almost more than the visual.

"Skimmed your comment before watching the episode. Only saw his name and was excited. :("
Awwww naw :( sorry you!

"Yeah, surprised that they didn't no-homo it. Then again, maybe they thought J's new appearance would deter the shippers?"
...it's not gonna deter the shippers, is it? Or maybe that's just me projecting. I find him kinda more interesting now. I always identify more with the (allegedly) 'monstrous' though.

"Liked that one too, even though Blixa Bargeld's Italian version has ruined the original for me."
I just listened to that and YES PLEASE THANK YOU. Goooood cover. I'll always love the original extended guitar version above any other song ever, but it's apparently pretty impossible to screw this perfect song up.

Love letters are canon. And Ed totally checked thicc!Oswald out in that limousine!

Well, I will be definitely looking for some Bruce/J fic. Or Jim/J, I ain't picky. ;)

Thanks for linking that longer version. There probably exists a terrible version of that song somewhere, but fortunately, I'm not (yet) aware of it, lol.

There's a Prince cover as well which is kind of a mash-up with Wild Thing and I'd not heard it before we had this conversation and I'm INTO it.

Oh boy.

Gotta be honest: I'm just going to pretend this series finale never happened because I thought it was a mess and a half. Didn't hate it, I guess, but I found it pretty unnecessary as it added nothing new to my overall enjoyment of the show. So, for now, no desire to ever re-watch it.

The worst offense: The new Selina actress. Not the performance, just the recast per se. If you literally don't recast anybody else (I don't even count Bruce because he was barely there), just leave it as is. Who the fuck cares about realism? Obviously not this show because nobody visibly aged anyway.

Instead, I'm sure, the majority of fans would have loved to see the BatCat they know and love reunited. For the record, I care very little about Bruce in general, but I definitely missed CB!Selina. (I would have bought new!Selina as a younger Babs, maybe, but not as Selina.)


Stuff I liked:

- "Uncle Harv."

- Babs's wig looked a lot more awful in the promo photos. It was surprisingly decent here.

- Ed. I think he was the most entertaining character out of the bunch. I also liked his glasses.

- The return of Mayor James, the old cockroach. (What can I say, I loved Spin City!)

- J's make-up. Great transformation!

- J loves Bruce. It's canon.

- That final shot, I guess?


Stuff I disliked:

- Thought the "Oswald/Ed were in prison" premise was an incredibly lazy way to keep the characters as static as possible for a decade. I also would have preferred them to be in Arkham/Blackgate together just so we could have had more scenes with the duo.

- We never learned why Oswald and Ed went to Blackgate/Arkham. I still want to know what got Oswald so incensed about how his arrest went down. Or was it really just the feeling of betrayal after they fought side by side in 5x11?

- If a bomb could kill you any minute, why not call your little girl to say goodbye? That would have given me a lot more family feels than that tired daddy-saves-daughter scenario, especially since we conveniently had Jim, Babs, and Lee in one room together.

- The complete and utter disappointment that was fat!Oswald. I didn't expect much based on the promo pics, but it was still a letdown.

- The case of the week made no little sense.

My personal issues:

1.) Didn't Harvey wear a wire? The only good reason for why he told Jim to check if the incapacitated officer was wearing one. Otherwise, it wouldn't have mattered.

2.) It made no sense to first have the Mayor kidnapped only then for him to suddenly order for Harv to be sent to Blackgate. Why, for example, didn't he order the same for Ed?

3.) What was the point of replacing the new clock tower with the old one when Jeremiah didn't want his cover to be blown? (Unless Bad news, boss. Our cover's blownskies was meant a lot less serious than I read it.) Would have made more sense if Ed had seen through the ruse all along and planted it there to point Jim and the others to the real threat. Just, you know, to make the (allegedly) smartest man in Gotham seem less incompetent.

Yeah, I don't know. Could have done without the case of the week. I'd found it more enjoyable if Oswald and Ed had been more involved. Ed should have been angry about being used like that. He should have hated that someone else stole the show. Oswald, in turn, should have been furious about someone framing him for the whole thing, especially so shortly after being released from Blackgate.

- The repeated rehashing of the Jim/Oswald pier scene in 1x01. We already had that in the previous episode.

- You cannot tell me Babs, the so-called "Queen of Gotham", would have to go "to her old club" to get herself a gun. I mean, she could be reformed and still legally own one, right?

- You cannot tell me Babs, the so-called "Queen of Gotham", would sit on her hands and let Jim save their daughter on his own. Same with Lee. Eye-roll. The sidelining of them is particularly bad considering how both Babs and Lee stepped up in 5x11 when they stood with Jim and the others.

- It didn't exactly feel in character for Lee to be so wishy-washy about Jim thinking about stepping down as Commissioner. She should have been downright ecstatic. Okay, maybe she finally accepted that Jim is essentially married to his job, but it still felt too simple to have him just go, "Welp, guess not" there at the end.

- I get why the Bat went after Ed, but Oswald is technically a free man.

- Selina's But I didn't want to be protected. I wanted you. I feel it would have been a lot more realistic (and satisfying!) for her to tell Bruce to go fuck himself right at the end.

- Bruce's glaring absence. I get what they were going for, but it didn't work for me and I'd have gladly had a scene with him and Alfred. Or him, Alfred, and Lucius.


Questions:

- Was it ever said what Babs was planning to do with that building of hers? Don't remember.

- How will Oswald get his hands on the Iceberg Lounge? I really wanted to see him own it at the end.

- What was this promo pic about???!


Edited 2019-04-27 10:57 am (UTC)

Adding to this from a private message:

I would have been fine with a light-hearted, fun Batman romp (= the Oswald/Ed parts) if they hadn't paired that with the darkly dramatic aspects of Jeremiah's return. Curiously enough, I hated the fact that Babs was crying the most and not even the violence per se. Add to that she wasn't even a part of Babs Jr.'s rescue... which was completely mind-boggling and stupid.

It was also super unsatisfying to see Jim contemplating stepping down as Commissioner -- and, as Lee put it, making room for others to "step up" -- without gaining any insight into what he managed to achieve during his stint. In that context, it also felt strangely hollow to learn that Oswald and Ed were already arrested and incarcerated a decade ago. Who took their place in the Gotham underworld during that time? Obviously, nobody when Oswald getting out of Blackgate is the Mayor's biggest concern at the moment.

Idk. It all was so static and forced and the fact that we needed the big time change for Bruce to return and then we didn't even really get to SEE his return was just the cherry on top of the disappointment that was this episode for me.

As I said, I don't hate it. I just found it incredibly unnecessary.

Edited to add: Gotta admit, I was wondering if they'd recast DM for this episode, but I always assumed it would be disrespectful to do that in the series finale. Professionals probably view it differently, but that's why I'm "just" a fan.

And another thing: It's a real travesty that Oswald had to get fat on prison food when he should have lived a good life and owned The Iceberg Lounge by now.

I also really wanted glasses!Jim and silver fox!Jim because that would have been hot as hell. Quietly hoping that Ben doesn't dye his hair. And if he does, that he stops for my benefit. Thank you and good night.

Shit. Now that I'm thinking about it, silver fox!Ed could have been all kinds of hot as well. And Ed's not even my type!

Edited 2019-04-28 06:14 pm (UTC)

Adding to this, I wanna know where the rest of the 'villains' went to, particularly Zsasz.

"I always assumed it would be disrespectful to do that in the series finale. Professionals probably view it differently, but that's why I'm "just" a fan."
Ummmm I'm not sure professionals do view it differently but they probably act mature about it in public (most of them :p) Camren was pretty chill seeming over it, but idk, not much to be gained from sour grapes I guess? I thought it was disrespectful as hell.

I'm gonna go out there and say how the hell do you get fat on Blackgate food anyway? Surely prison diet isn't that kinda diet. I now have these visions of him ruling the prison and getting tributes of pudding cups off all of his minions and I want that interim ten years even more!

Let's be real, silver fox anyone is hot as hell. We were robbed!

Glad I'm not the only one who hated the recast for that reason. I mean, I'm not even a massive fan of the character, but it still put me off SO MUCH.

Haha, now I'm picturing a prison dramedy centered on Oswald running Blackgate like a business. That said, I'm still more interested in learning the reason for his arrest. I have a theory for a fanfic I'm planning, but it's more about Jim and how he tried to prevent future crime as the new Commissioner. I just can't see what Oswald and Ed would suddenly do that lands both of them for a decade in Blackgate/Arkham when they always easily kept their heads above water in the previous seasons.

Just three words: Silver-fox!Fox. Yum!

I think I'm extra salty about disrespectful recasts, knowing all the crap that went down re Crowley getting axed from SPN. I just, yeah. Employers should treat employees decently no matter what the job imo.

"now I'm picturing a prison dramedy centered on Oswald running Blackgate like a business."
I legit want that so hard.

"I just can't see what Oswald and Ed would suddenly do that lands both of them for a decade in Blackgate/Arkham when they always easily kept their heads above water in the previous seasons."
Plot reasons :\ I mean, it's gonna literally just be that, right? If they'd had to actually show their workings and fill in that 10 year gap, they probably wouldn't have gone that route, I'm sure. Lazy writers.

Silver-fox!Foxy is something we need and deserve ;__;

"I found it pretty unnecessary as it added nothing new to my overall enjoyment of the show."
Very fair assessment.

"The worst offense: The new Selina actress. Not the performance, just the recast per se."
Absolutely this.

"- J's make-up. Great transformation!"
Also agreed. I liked Joker.

"- Thought the "Oswald/Ed were in prison" premise was an incredibly lazy way to keep the characters as static as possible for a decade. I also would have preferred them to be in Arkham/Blackgate together just so we could have had more scenes with the duo."
Same. I kinda thought it was... cruel? I know irl they'd deserve prison, but in terms of those characters, it just seemed very mean. I guess it'd give them definite motivation to go after Jim again when they got out :\

"- We never learned why Oswald and Ed went to Blackgate/Arkham. I still want to know what got Oswald so incensed about how his arrest went down. Or was it really just the feeling of betrayal after they fought side by side in 5x11?"
This is why we need more airtime!

"- If a bomb could kill you any minute, why not call your little girl to say goodbye? That would have given me a lot more family feels than that tired daddy-saves-daughter scenario, especially since we conveniently had Jim, Babs, and Lee in one room together."
Also agreed, but also, J-Gor: emotionally constipated. Police work/bomb diffusion gets higher priority over farewells to a child, apparently.

"- The complete and utter disappointment that was fat!Oswald. I didn't expect much based on the promo pics, but it was still a letdown."
Hard agree. The fat suit out-badded any wig crimes they have thus far committed.

"1.) Didn't Harvey wear a wire? The only good reason for why he told Jim to check if the incapacitated officer was wearing one. Otherwise, it wouldn't have mattered."
Never thought of that. I think the writers didn't either by the looks of it.

"3.) What was the point of replacing the new clock tower with the old one when Jeremiah didn't want his cover to be blown? (Unless Bad news, boss. Our cover's blownskies was meant a lot less serious than I read it.) Would have made more sense if Ed had seen through the ruse all along and planted it there to point Jim and the others to the real threat. Just, you know, to make the (allegedly) smartest man in Gotham seem less incompetent."
I read it as that old trope of 'bad guy wants to leave clues to show off his misdeeds, expecting good guys to be dumb enough not to notice' thing. But, you're right, of course.

"- You cannot tell me Babs, the so-called "Queen of Gotham", would have to go "to her old club" to get herself a gun. I mean, she could be reformed and still legally own one, right?"
Surely everyone ever in Gotham keeps a gun on them at all times because it's Gotham ffs.

"- You cannot tell me Babs, the so-called "Queen of Gotham", would sit on her hands and let Jim save their daughter on his own. Same with Lee. Eye-roll. The sidelining of them is particularly bad considering how both Babs and Lee stepped up in 5x11 when they stood with Jim and the others."
Yes.

"- I get why the Bat went after Ed, but Oswald is technically a free man."
But he's a BADDIE (eyeroll)

"I feel it would have been a lot more realistic (and satisfying!) for her to tell Bruce to go fuck himself right at the end."
SO MUCH THIS.

"- Was it ever said what Babs was planning to do with that building of hers? Don't remember."
I don't think so. I could be wrong but I don't recall it being said.

"- What was this promo pic about???!"
Ummm...

I kinda thought it was... cruel? I know irl they'd deserve prison, but in terms of those characters, it just seemed very mean. I guess it'd give them definite motivation to go after Jim again when they got out :\

Yeah, idk. It would have worked better if they'd just said that those two were working on some great project together and that Jim arrested them before they could enact their plan. Or something. Just give us more than "lol they were in prison". I also just *love* how ~conveniently nobody arrested Selina.

J-Gor: emotionally constipated. Police work/bomb diffusion gets higher priority over farewells to a child, apparently.

Frankly, I don't give a shit about Jim. I just wanted to see Babs and Lee co-parent. :(

I read it as that old trope of 'bad guy wants to leave clues to show off his misdeeds, expecting good guys to be dumb enough not to notice' thing. But, you're right, of course.

That makes sense. But I can't shake the feeling that Ed should have been a part of disarming that bomb. The old clock tower clue. The green wires. It would have made more sense to keep him there instead of Babs and Lee, tbh. (Not saying that they shouldn't have been there with the little screentime they had, but maybe just give them something better to do?)

Edited to add: Not even sure they used a fat suit for Oswald. To me, the proportions looked super weird and unrealistic as if they put a pillow under his shirt or something.

Edited 2019-05-02 02:20 am (UTC)

"It would have worked better if they'd just said that those two were working on some great project together and that Jim arrested them before they could enact their plan."
Yeah, it would make much more sense. And I'm kinda guessing that's what happened..? Like, they left it pre-time-jump that Ed and Os were both fuming mad at Jim, so I'm guessing they didn't wait long before they tried another coup. But I agree, it was such a cop-out storyline to just incarcerate the both of them for the whole time.

"I also just *love* how ~conveniently nobody arrested Selina."
God, so much this. And the whole attitude of 'lol, I bet Bruce will be surprised that she's now a major hardened criminal'. FFS.

All of your theories are better than canon tbh.

And, so much agreement re fat suit Os. I'm pretty sure I commented somewhere that that's really not how weight-gain works...