Jeez. I don't feel like thinking long and hard about this episode, so I'll keep this comment short.

When I bemoaned the lack of Lee in the last episode, it was mainly because I already knew that she and Jim would get hitched in this one. I'm still baffled that TPTB couldn't give these two a few casual, couple-y moments before going that route. Plus, if it's not even legitimate -- at least that's how I interpreted Harvey's By the power vested in me by absolutely no one -- who the fuck needs or cares about a symbolic marriage? It was also rude as hell not to invite Babs if they're genuinely hoping to raise this child with her.


Stuff I liked:

- Lee's interactions with other characters, particularly Alfred. Loved that she got time to voice her doubts about the situation with Babs. But while I adored Alfred's little speech, I also thought that it was wasted on him. It would have meant a lot more to hear Jim tell Lee that. Especially after Lee said, Well, I need to hear it from him. Like this, the episode mostly gave me Lee/Alfred feels.

And, yeah, I know that Jim ~conveniently~ told her he needed her right after waking up, but due to all the unnecessary injury drama, it didn't even have half the genuine charm that the scene with Alfred had. I also think the wedding would have worked a lot better without the Can I ask you something? bit. That way, we could have pretended that, in that one month that passed, they got over their remaining issues and simply decided to take this step.

- Alfred being a great guy. It was also cute how he kept calling Lee "Miss Thompkins".

- The number of people getting slapped. Made me laugh. Same with Lee dropping the baby.

- Harv going all Papa Bear over Jim getting hurt.

- Lucius' dopey smile.

- The silly excuse of a government-related plot. I'm impressed with how little anyone actually cared about what went down at that plant.

- Oswald, Ed, and the piano in Jim's hallucination. My favorite detail.

- The time jump. I already complained about the time jump last week, but here I'm glad that, at least, we know how much time passed. That said, it was silly as hell to suddenly have Bruce talk about something that happened a month ago.

- Hey, if you get to write an episode, you should definitely call your RL wife's character smarter and better-looking than your own!

- Harvey mentioning Lee's Tetch episode and ~conveniently~ ignoring the entirety of season 4.

- Babs and Oswald being besties (?) now.


Stuff I didn't like:

- The trial. You really think Lee is the person who Jim hurt the most and then later show us a dead kid with a burnt face? Suuure. I generally disliked that Jim's hallucination was so Lee-centric. Having Babs drop the baby, for example, could have expressed Jim's fear of her hurting the child if he doesn't agree to her demands. Or whatever. I also would have liked to see more witnesses take the stand.

Like this, it's really clear that Jim only sees himself, Lee, and the baby, which will only look worse if when Babs actually dies. (And don't think I have forgotten Babs' line in the last episode about Jim locking her up in order to get the baby!) Ugh. I'm already sick and tired of this stupid baby drama and the way the show keeps legitimizing Jim's claim to the child. It's even worse now that Jim and Lee are "married" and can play a goody-goody, nuclear family while constantly dismissing Babs as a dangerous psychopath. >:(

- Who the hell thought that we really needed Ivy of all people to be the baddie of the week? The only good reason for it would have been a nice little scene with Ecco. I already didn't enjoy it when she controlled everybody in season 4 and this wasn't much better as far as I'm concerned. Really, I didn't even enjoy Zsasz here.

Plus: Why even introduce the cease-fire to appease the government when Ivy doesn't try to torpedo it? That would have been a far better plan all along. Jim doesn't need to be dead for the city to erupt into chaos.

- The cease-fire made absolutely no sense because no one with a territory was there. Zsasz? Scarecrow? Freeze? Firefly?


Lines of the week:

- LEE: Am I supposed to just stay at home and raise this child with Barbara while you go cowboying off all the time?

Thompkean LIVES!

- OSWALD [to BABS]: You know all about that, don't you?

- SELINA: I made me strong.

- ALFRED: What matters is this: you'll be an exquisite mother, and that child, he or she will be extraordinary because of you.

I wish Babs would hear similar things from someone. :(


Last but not least: Alfred's line [I]t was like a session of the Italian parliament struck me as a little weird. I know what it means and why it fits, but it was oddly specific.

Edited 2019-03-08 05:58 pm (UTC)

"only justices, judges, magistrates, notaries, or clergymen are legally authorized to officiate weddings in the United States"
Nope. Not a legal marriage. No idea why it happened, except maybe it was a morale-builder for the assembled congregation or something? And obvs Jim loves to be centre of attention.

"It was also rude as hell not to invite Babs if they're genuinely hoping to raise this child with her."
Word.

"Jim ~conveniently~ told her he needed her right after waking up"
LOLLLLL Jim Gordon trope number 1234385748 'will only declare feelings on his death-bed'.

"Same with Lee dropping the baby."
I have to admit, I'm an awful person and I laughed at quite a lot of Jim's dying hallucinations, purely because they were just SO histrionic and on-the-nose. Like, god, he is such a little drama queen.

"Harv going all Papa Bear over Jim getting hurt."
Hnnnngggggg

"Lucius' dopey smile."
Siiiiiiigh :)

"Hey, if you get to write an episode, you should definitely call your RL wife's character smarter and better-looking than your own!"
THIS. IT WAS LIKE FAN FIC. Self inserty fan fic.

"I generally disliked that Jim's hallucination was so Lee-centric."
I didn't like it either, but I also have to admit that it's a pretty Jim thing. Like, he is SO self absorbed, everything is about Lee or his own guilt.

"Like this, it's really clear that Jim only sees himself, Lee, and the baby, which will only look worse if when Babs actually dies."
Yepppppp. And so much yep to their convenient little ready made hetero family unit now, all judgey on Babs (that line from Babs actually 'it was a one-time slip' or however she described her banging Jim). I don't think the show (as in her characterisation etc, not the crappy treatment from certain other characters) is entirely unforgiving in its treatment of Babs, but I do agree it's being way too affirming of said other characters' crappy treatment of her. Like, they really ARE ignoring Lee's (and Jim's) entire S4 aren't they?

"I'm already sick and tired of this stupid baby drama"
Word.

I just flat out didn't get the Italian Parliament line when it was said and I can't remember the context now.

And obvs Jim loves to be centre of attention.

Only Jim Gordon would think that his "marriage" is morale-building, ffs.

Like, they really ARE ignoring Lee's (and Jim's) entire S4 aren't they?

Yeah, at this point, it's almost funny how they've glossed over the Lee/Ed thing. Honestly, if the trial had included any mention of Jim's fuck-ups in s4, I'd have been the first person to praise that. I mean, either call Jim out or don't.

I just flat out didn't get the Italian Parliament line when it was said and I can't remember the context now.

Alfred and Lee talked about Jim and Lee's argument at the beginning of the episode. The implication is that it was heated.

ALFRED: Forgive me, but I heard on the grapevine that you and Captain Gordon had a rather heated exchange this morning.

LEE: Oh, God. Was it that bad?

ALFRED: Apparently, it was like a session of the Italian parliament.

"Only Jim Gordon would think that his "marriage" is morale-building, ffs."
So true though, lol.

Ahhh thanks for including that quote - it makes sense now. I think I just didn't quite take it in, when I first heard it.

re: the alfred and lee scene... i mean, they had to throw sean pertwee some kind of bone for their last episode they filmed, lol. like, idk, i think alfred gets used as a flip floppy prop that doesn't have a lot of internal consistency, but giving him a moment to actually talk abt his relationship with bruce that's not tied to *waves vaguely at vigilante-in-training shenanigans* is a nice thought, i guess??? but in the context of the story... have they even interacted since, like, season 2? weird person to have a heart to heart with, even if it works thematically. (buuuut, what i actually started this comment to say: i couldn't stop thinking abt how, given the focus in the middle abt raising someone you don't share blood with but you do share other things, it easily read as another moment of ben being self-indulgent, what with him out there raising a stepchild himself.)

but haaaard same at the entire bullet point abt the trial and the baby drama. if they really do kill her, i'm just.... ugh.

Sorry for the late reply! I totally didn't see your comment until yesterday. Honestly, the only thing I remember re: Lee/Alfred is that, in one early episode, he had the hots for her before he learned that she was Jim's girlfriend. After that, no idea. Definitely an odd choice for a heart-to-heart, but it's not as if Lee has any established friendships in the show. Plus, as you say, it was good to get some more insight into Alfred's character and his relationship with Bruce.

Now that I think about it, the only other person who could have provided a similar perspective would have been Oswald with regard to Martín. It would have made sense for him to check on Jim for opportunistic reasons and he has a connection to Lee's pregnancy because he was present to roll his eyes when she told Jim about it in season 2. That said, just imagine Lee and Oswald having this conversation, haha.

Oh, and I totally didn't make the connection re: Ben's private life!

If they kill Babs after all this shit, I will be bitter as hell. :/

I mean, I can see how this was not objectively a good episode, but honestly, I can't find a whole lot to hate about it even though it was dumb af (maybe /because/ it was dumb af).

I'm mainly finding it fascinating that this was the ep that Ben wrote. Like, he's actually a really pretty decent writer and idk why I find that surprising, but it's refreshing. The writing was good. It did feel a bit like the kind of writer tug-of-war that was (is) a lot of the problem on SPN, though. This one felt (to me) less like the usual writing and more like (albeit very nicely written) fanfiction. It seemed very indulgent and wish-fulfil-y and like the work of someone who's got a bit fed up of all doom and drama all of the time and has decided to go 'fuck it' and insert the American Horror Story happy ending into the middle of the season. Like, the wedding was AWFUL TWEE, but I can't even hate it too much because at least everyone looked happy for once.

Stuff I didn't like:

There wasn't so much stuff I didn't like in this episode than stuff that I feel didn't totally work... Again, the inconsistency in characterisation that felt a little like someone who just likes (or understands idk) the characters more had suddenly taken the wheel.
The main thing that felt whack for me is that the pacing is SO off. They're getting away with the time jumps because it's comic-booky, but I'm also finding them jarring in terms of relationships between characters. People seem to be running very suddenly hot and cold with each other. But I guess the show is stuck with that due to having their episode number slashed. It's not great, though.

I found Jim simultaneously a lot more sympathetic and a lot a more insufferable this episode. I liked how much he got called out - Lee at the beginning, his own subconscious, Harv ragging him that he was overly virtuous or however he worded it. So, it was nice not to outright want to punch him quite as much, and good that he was being called on some of his behaviour. But also, god, that whole trial was self indulgent and tedious. Jim Gordon: a martyr even in his own subconscious.

It's also starting to become really clear what's in store for Babs and I hate that they're doing her so dirty. I'm now gonna predict that she'll be injured, Lee will try to save her life and end up only managing to save the baby, and with her dying breath she'll probably ask Lee and/or Jim to take care of the baby for her and one or both of them will name the baby after her. If that pans out, I might puke. I'd much rather her die cursing their names tbh.

The whole Ivy plotline was a a bit blah. I didn't hate it, but it felt a bit repetitive and redundant and her wanting to re-introduce the pollutants into the river (because the people will die off but the plants will bounce back..? erm OK) seems a bit of a stretch character-wise for me. But seeing Zsasz all psycho loved-up, and Lucius's lovely dopey grin was kinda enough to sweeten it for me.

The wedding was just the dumbest, dumbest thing ever. Like, I'm guessing that wasn't even a real wedding? (Are there no priests left in Gotham..?) Like, perhaps it was a morale-building thing for the 'good guys' idk but whilst I think it's weirdly timed and stupid and annoying and I have no idea why they'd even be together at this point after everything they've been through, it was at least a bit feel-good and Harvey was adorable, so I'm just gonna not dwell on it too much.

Stuff I liked:

The writing. It felt like the writer knew the characters, but more than that, LIKED the characters. It was nice to get even a tiny bit of good feels, even if it was stupid. And I noticeably enjoyed a lot of the dialogue in this episode.

Lee instantly calling Jim the fuck out and saying everything to his face that I've been yelling at the screen for weeks.

"Am I just gonna stay home and raise this baby with Barbara?" Yes. Yes please.

Bruce and Selina. Like for real, what kind of loved-up fanfic was this ep anyway?! (I'm not complaining).

That deadly cute speech Alfred gave to Lee. Alfred: everyone's dad <3

Harvey. Everything he did and everything he said and his beautiful hair and his beautiful fucking face. I mean, Harvey going into non-nonsense acting captain mode before going totally feral trying to track down who hurt ~his partner~ was just gorgeous (he was almost S1 level violence...) Punching Oswald in the face, god. His total desperate unfaltering conviction in Lee "The doc's gonna save him". Him hurling himself at Zsasz in that hazmat suit made me laugh actually out loud, it was gold. And for real, he just looked so HAPPY at that dumb wedding <3 "By the power vested in me by absolutely no-one" aw, bless. Ironically for the most hetero episode imaginable, my Harv n Jim feels are a lot rn. (Special mention to dream!Harv drinking Mai Tai and trailing his fingers along Jim's cell bars - sure, this is how he behaves in your subconscious, Jim. Sure.)
I mean, the way Harv was written in this was inconsistent in that he is actually being treated well again, being given more agency, being written /smart/ as well as funny... it seems a big and sudden turn-around in terms of how Jim is treating him, but I guess the time jumps and all...

Zsasz. I mean, I wasn't loving the Ivy plot either, it was just a bit meh, but at this stage Zsasz cracks me the hell up just by existing and when he said "Mrs Ivy Pepper Zsasz" or whatever it was, I just lost it. Hilarious. I found out AC ad-libbed the line about Alvarez strip searching him, so I'd like to think he maybe ad-libbed that cracker too. The fact he seems utterly unable to keep a secret also delights me and is making me laugh all over again. I also enjoy the implication that, if it takes a good punch in the head to snap you out of the Ivy toxin, then Zsasz is a good bet for a long-term slave because nobody can get close enough to him to hit him. (Unless you're Alfred, apparently - I also liked that bit!)

Lucius. Again, yeah the Ivy stuff is a bit meh, but Lucius's adorable little face when he's all blissed-out on Ivy toxin was just hilarious.

I'm sure there's more stuff I've missed. All in all, I liked it.

This one felt (to me) less like the usual writing and more like (albeit very nicely written) fanfiction.

Agreed. Especially the bits relating to Jim's injury. That said, I was extremely thankful that Lee was allowed to have -- and, more importantly, articulate -- some misgivings about the Babs situation. It was also nice to see Harvey approach the Jim shooting like a case, even though I obviously would have liked to see more detective work and less Ivy shenanigans.

The main thing that felt whack for me is that the pacing is SO off. They're getting away with the time jumps because it's comic-booky, but I'm also finding them jarring in terms of relationships between characters.

Agreed. I must admit I didn't even particularly notice that re: Jim and Harv because Harv delighted me too much in this ep, but I was definitely wondering what's suddenly up with Babs and Oswald. And is Selina still a part of that submarine plan?

It's also starting to become really clear what's in store for Babs and I hate that they're doing her so dirty.

Co-signed. At this point, I'm wondering if they decided to keep Gotham a No Man's Land for almost a year because, that way, there was a higher probability for Babs to die during the delivery due to birth complications. I mean, clearly, there is no other good reason for stretching things out like this as they obviously couldn't give less of a fuck about the setting and hurdles like shortages of food, medicine or ammunition.

But also, god, that whole trial was self indulgent and tedious. Jim Gordon: a martyr even in his own subconscious.

Haha, spot-on observation!

It felt like the writer knew the characters, but more than that, LIKED the characters.

Good point. I'm almost a little charmed by that alone.

Bruce and Selina. Like for real, what kind of loved-up fanfic was this ep anyway?! (I'm not complaining).

I guess we have a BatCat shipper here?

Punching Oswald in the face, god.

Definitely my biggest laugh this episode.

Special mention to dream!Harv drinking Mai Tai and trailing his fingers along Jim's cell bars - sure, this is how he behaves in your subconscious, Jim. Sure.

New headcanon: Jim gets completely shitfaced at every GCPD office party and Alvarez' drinks are to blame. As for the way Harv behaved... We all know why. ;)

The fact he seems utterly unable to keep a secret also delights me and is making me laugh all over again.

This, Lucius' face, and hazmat!Harv were my fave things about the Ivy plot.

Edited 2019-03-10 11:47 am (UTC)

"I was extremely thankful that Lee was allowed to have -- and, more importantly, articulate -- some misgivings about the Babs situation."
Yeah, absolutely this. It felt like it had been a long time coming and needed addressing.

"It was also nice to see Harvey approach the Jim shooting like a case"
It was SO good. And so well-done in that you could see the echoes of 'I come up here and work on paperwork to keep myself sane' in how clearly desperate with worry he was through it.

"I was definitely wondering what's suddenly up with Babs and Oswald. And is Selina still a part of that submarine plan?"
Agreed, again. Everything seems to be flitting around a bit too much. Hopefully it'll be explained in the next episode. Maybe.

"I guess we have a BatCat shipper here?"
Confirmed (awwww cute!)

"New headcanon: Jim gets completely shitfaced at every GCPD office party and Alvarez' drinks are to blame. As for the way Harv behaved... We all know why. ;)"
I mean, all of this is just facts to me :p

The amount of characters (especially Jim, but Harv that episode was also especially wonderful) who just hurl themselves bodily at gunmen in Gotham is a neverending source of entertainment to me. Nothing will beat Jim's flying tackle of Zsasz in Zsasz's sniping lair, though. Except perhaps that time Jim dived headfirst down the garbage chute...

Ironically for the most hetero episode imaginable,

Coming back to this thought to say that, despite all the hetero-ness, it was damn refreshing to see how much Ben gave the female characters of the show to do. Selina got to save the day at the plant, Babs saved the day behind the scenes, and Lee saved Jim through her medical expertise (and her ~love~). Even Ivy as the baddie of the week could have been kind of cool if the setup had been better and the focus of the episode wasn't so much on Jim's little self-indulgent hallucination and "growth".

Yeah, you make a very good point, and I did think this at the time of watching, too - good on Ben for writing the female characters really very decently and giving them a lot of screen time. It was honestly one of the better eps of the season for me so far (apart from obviously the Harv centric one shh I'm biased :p)

Nothing biased about it. 5x08 was a strong ep for Harv.

Personally, I think I liked most of what came before 5x05. But ever since Eduardo appeared on the screen, I haven't bothered to rewatch even a single episode. It's just so damn obvious that they had no idea how to reconcile the government plot with the duration of Babs' pregnancy. As someone who's into mysteries and was looking forward to a nice, meaty villain arc for our hot evil lady Walker, I'm plain disappointed in that aspect of the season.

It's also pretty damn obvious they're only biding their time re: the unification until the baby comes. This makes me SUPER mad because, if Babs predictably dies, they basically mainly kept her around as a gestational carrier. :/

It was brilliant. The most emotive thing I've seen this season.

Yeah. I feel you. I've mainly felt that the 'Gordon's messy love life' element has pulled focus too much from the potentially interesting intrigue and baddies.

They are totally using Babs as a baby oven. It's super gross and I do not care for it and I sort of wish they'd just get it over with so there's at least maybe hope for a good finale episode..? :(

Agreed re: Jim's love life. I think it would have worked a lot better without both the slap kiss and the marriage. The last episode could have easily centered on her last remaining doubts about getting back together with Jim under these circumstances. But then Jim tells her that he needs her and, of course, Alfred's little speech also gives her the courage to ~pursue him or whatever. Bleh.

I must admit that I would've found it a lot more interesting -- albeit not less gross, ofc -- if Lee had returned pregnant because Strange experimented on her or whatever. Mainly because it's something that would've explained the duration of Lee's absence and, in that way, they would've had to focus on the trauma of that event. I'm still pissed that both Lee and Ed didn't really have a chance to talk or get over what was done to them.

I'm spoilered enough to be relatively sure that, despite all this, we'll probably get a satisfying finale episode.

Agreed. Especially the slap kiss. That actually annoys me more the longer I think about it.

"The last episode could have easily centered on her last remaining doubts about getting back together with Jim under these circumstances. But then Jim tells her that he needs her and, of course, Alfred's little speech also gives her the courage to ~pursue him or whatever. Bleh."
Yes, I'll take your version instead of canon, thanks.

Yeah, there are a lot of people in Gotham in serious need of longterm counselling, put it that way.

I am cheered by your conviction of a decent finale. I remain relatively unspoilered (except by the title of the next ep GODDAMMIT WRITING TEAM!) but I much appreciate your reassuring snippets like this (and your Harvey Safety Report!)

"I'd much rather her die cursing their names tbh."
a mood

It'd be way more IC right? -_-