Oh boy. That was a lot. Otherwise, I don't really have a lot of feelings about this episode. Edit: Okay, I'm now officially annoyed because I was actually looking forward to Lee's return.


Things I loved:

- The final acknowledgment that Walker was behind the chopper attack.

- Selina calling Oswald out for Tabitha's death. I still thought it made sense that she joined him after all.

- Generally the light-hearted Oswald/Selina stuff. And the twitchy finger.

- This Ed/Jim exchange: It happened again, didn't it? What did I do? -- You tried to kill me. -- Oh. Is that all?

- The fact that the chip in Ed's brain could be conveniently used to extract information from it. It even stored an audio log. I love Gotham technology!

- Nygma, you're a son of a bitch! -- Oh, not now, Bullock. Also, the fact that Harvey solved the riddle.

- The short Lee/Harv moment. I think it was my favorite Lee moment.

- Okay, okay. I'm not Eduardo's biggest fan, but I must say that I love a crazy bastard with an agenda. And I was anxiously typing that Jimduardo shipping manifesto in my head during their But I am gonna shut your mouth. Once and for all. -- Come try. exchange. I just wish this was the last episode we saw him in.

- Re: Walker. My thoughts as she appeared on the screen: Evil lady hot. I'm so glad I didn't google the actress when I stumbled upon her name a few weeks earlier.

Still think she's a super weak baddie, though. It doesn't help that her true agenda still largely remains a mystery. Plus, it was the stupidest move to bring Lee in like that. She would've made the best sleeper agent if they'd simply sent her into the Green Zone as another refugee. And why the hell didn't they install a kill switch into the chip in case the mission fails?

- Ben must really like shots of himself running and close-ups of his face. But I approve.

- Several Jim Gordon Hair Moments (TM).

- Sergeant Angel Vallelunga is and remains attractive.


Things I hated:

- Lee's return. Not gonna lie, I'm happy she's back, but damn, I hated her as the damsel in distress. No, it didn't help that she shot those guys. I was also pretty confused when Jim immediately opened up to her at the first moment they were alone together. I guess we know now that Jim/Lee is definitely endgame?! [disgusted noise]

- Babs' pregnancy. The only way I won't hate it: She survives until the end and gets to name her child.

Ngl, I'm already mentally preparing myself for them killing Babs, the last remaining queer woman on this show, so that Jimmy-boy can tearfully name his daughter after her... This would be Bury your gays #2 this season. Idk. I don't really want to believe that TPTB can care so little about Gotham's female characters, but at the same time, I don't want to expect better... only to be disappointed.

- A separate bullet point for Jim Gordon's messy, straight drama.



- I'm also not here for TPTB casually throwing Jim/Lee back into our faces. First, Ed's I'm not gonna wait around to watch their touching reunion. Honestly, considering they're exes, he and Lee should have had more to talk about than her and Jim?! I mean, at this point, I'm thankful that we're not rehashing Ed/Lee, but that still doesn't mean that Jim/Lee suddenly makes sense. Because it doesn't.

I also hated the implication that Lee would suddenly care about him sleeping with somebody else when they have been officially separated for two and a half seasons now. Plus, last season, when Ed told Jim he was having Lee in each and every way? That was the nail in the Jim/Lee coffin for me, personally. And I was one of the few people who would've been pro-Jim/Lee if s4 hadn't pulled this shit fest of a characterization for him.


Other thoughts:

- Timeline: 5x01 started on Day 87. Jim tells Lee it's been over three months since the bridges were destroyed. Meaning that not more than four weeks passed between the events of 5x01 and 5x06? Makes me think we're in for another big time jump. (Reminder: The 5x01 opening scene takes place on Day 391.)

- Official confirmation that Wayne Manor is on the mainland: How did you even find a way off the bloody island anyway? I know, technically, it was already confirmed in the last episode, but I absolutely did not make the location connection.

- Was this the first time we heard about Bruce having an apartment in the city? (Alfred can go back to the apartment and grab what you can?)

- Weird for Pena Dura to suddenly come up in conversation, even though last week's episode was already named after it.

- Didn't understand why Eduardo had to refer to both Lee and Babs as Jim's "ex-fiancés". I mean, I get that it was probably meant to allude to the love triangle we might be facing. But still.

- Please give Lee some agency. I hope that her Maybe we can help each other was meant to indicate that she's got her own plans for the future. I don't really care about Jim pining for her and it still makes no sense that she would return to him after s4. Unless, of course, the writers handwave that she was finally cured of the Tetch virus and it was the only thing that kept her from reuniting with Jim in s4. Bleh.

- Interesting that they apparently always had the opportunity to contact the mainland press. Also, Bruce has press contacts all of a sudden? Since we now know that the government came actually close to sending relief, I hope Bruce uses those press contacts to get the people food and medicine.

- Funny how Babs never has any people to spare (Can you pull in some of your people, see if they can help? -- No. I need them guarding my territory.). I also love that, even though Babs and Jim made up and she has food, Jim's people are still starving.

- I honestly hope that Ed will keep his promise to get Babs vital information in exchange for her helping him with Strange. She's going to need all the allies in the world to keep herself and her baby safe. I wish Babs all the best, seriously. ;___;

- I really want to know what Eduardo's mission is. What is Walker planning?

- I didn't really understand the Oswald scene last week when he went into his secret vault. I'm curious about his plan, even though I might already be spoiled for it.

- I think it's a bit sad and OOC that Oswald doesn't seem to care one bit about what happened/was done to Ed, even though it's essentially his fault.

- I guess we got the confirmation that Oswald and Ed fucked at least once: I've done all I can in Gotham. Some things twice.


Speculation:

- Ed promised Babs intel. Oswald planning to leave Gotham is probably the hottest piece of Gotham gossip right now, so I'm simply going to assume that Ed will find out about it. Plus, considering her pregnancy, Babs could have a vested interest in leaving the city as soon as possible.

- Oswald's plan to leave will fail, of course. I suspect that Walker has a hand in it and that it might be a reason why Oswald will later fight at Jim's side. So far, he doesn't really have a reason to be extremely fed up with the government on a personal level.

- I wonder if Jeremiah's tunnel will prove to be useful later on. I mean, why did the writers even tie the Soothsayers to Jeremiah, if Jim isn't meant to figure out the location of the tunnel? Then again, Bruce/Selina/Alfred must also be aware of its location.

Edited 2019-02-17 05:45 pm (UTC)

I really need to rewatch this episode asap because I was rushed and stressed when I watched it (hence no thoughts post yet) and now all I can recall is Jim and Eduardo flirting.

OK but I commented out loud when Selina mentioned Tabs - I knew you'd be pleased at that. She seemed put out enough too that it was satisfying and it implies she cares. I liked that bit too.

I also enjoyed the Os and Selina stuff (and that nose-boop was hilarious, she is so fully not gonna be his sidekick). I pretty much hated Magpie (she looked cool, but that speech-pattern is irritating as hell) but I enjoyed the lampshading of Os and Selina both rolling their eyes at her. Particularly Oswald's appropriately enraged "Who the HELL is THAT?!"

" The fact that the chip in Ed's brain could be conveniently used to extract information from it."
Also, yet again, Lucius is the quiet and discreet hero of the day. Like, they would be so screwed without Lucius but he gets so little credit. I think he's moving up the ranks of my faves. I think he may actually be second fave already...

"Also, the fact that Harvey solved the riddle."
OH god, I swear... I was simultaneously so proud of him, whilst also internally cringeing that the one time he's all book-smart, it's when he should really keep his mouth shut. Bless him.

That 'shut me up' exchange was off the scale ridiculous and they MUST know how gay that was and it must have been intentional baiting. If it wasn't, I just... I cannot. Even.

Walker seems pretty cool. I'm on board with hot evil lady.

"Plus, it was the stupidest move to bring Lee in like that. She would've made the best sleeper agent if they'd simply sent her into the Green Zone as another refugee."
This is so true. I'm quietly hoping that there's some kind of double bluff involved and they're smarter than they seem, but I... don't think so. Like, what if Lee is a double agent all along. She's with them, with or without the chip. But now, if they remove the chip, they will /absolutely/ trust her. And she could get close to Jim like nobody else... (I realise this won't happen and she's probably just rebooted as a good girl etc)

"Ben must really like shots of himself running and close-ups of his face. But I approve."
The whole episode was making me laugh so hard because Jim literally throws himself head first into so many things, he's like this tiny angry little goat just running full tilt at stuff and headbutting it, and I cannot shake that mental image.

"Several Jim Gordon Hair Moments (TM)."
I also said 'his hair is losing structural integrity, it must be serious'.

Also hated Lee's return. They're probably gonna do the absolute worst and have her as damsel in distress permanently now. Maybe she'll get to patch up some wounded like a merciful angel.

"I was also pretty confused when Jim immediately opened up to her at the first moment they were alone together."
It was utterly dumb, and I'd like to think that Lee was sort of wtf about it too, and I can only rationalise it because Jim is an actual mess. He's so repressed and lacking in emotional range, so now he's under immense stress and directly responsible for loads of people's lives, it's just all kind of leaking out at the edges :\

"Babs' pregnancy. The only way I won't hate it: She survives until the end and gets to name her child."
Literally this. I mean, I absolutely hate it. I think it's STUPID (you're gonna apocalypse-bone without using protection? You want to be fckn pregnant in a war zone? No. She's smarter than that. This is ooc. Unless they're going for some kind of 'Babs needs someone to love so she wants to have a kid' idec.) I'd so love if she names her kid after herself. We all know she's gonna get fridged and Jim will /name his daughter after her in her honour because he's just soooo noble like that/. *gag*

I really fckn want Babs and Lee to bond over Jim being the worst.

"A separate bullet point for Jim Gordon's messy, straight drama."
I hate it. So much. I did get a little grim satisfaction at him being faced with both Babs and Lee at the same time, with Harv right there too, but it wasn't satisfying enough to make me not hate it utterly.

"I also hated the implication that Lee would suddenly care about him slutting it up with another woman when they have been officially separated for two and a half seasons now."
SO MUCH THIS! Why would she even care?! Why is it implied that they're suddenly even on speaking terms again after what happened between them?!

"Makes me think we're in for another big time jump."
We absolutely are, because now Babs has to be pregnant/give birth. Sucktastic.

"Official confirmation that Wayne Manor is on the mainland: How did you even find a way off the bloody island anyway?"
Yeah, I really liked that too. For some reason I seem to recall an apartment in the city of Bruce's being mentioned before, maybe when he was being party!brat, but even if I'm imagining that, it does at least make sense he'd have one.

" Interesting that they apparently always had the opportunity to contact the mainland press."
Mega plot hole. Although I guess maybe they didn't bother before because they thought they were actually in touch with the government already?

I'm pretty much here for Babs being as mean as she wants to be to Jim/his peace efforts now. I'm just hecka mad at him.

I mean, I'm getting that this is basically the plot to Escape from New York (or yknow, Escape from LA because it's more batshit) and Walker wants to cleanse Gotham ie kill everyone there because they're all 'the criminal element'. I mean, it makes no sense, but that's what I'm taking from it - she wants an excuse for zero tolerance.

I'm thinking the tunnel will definitely play a major part in future events. Not sure what, but it's gonna be a thing.

I'm wondering where the Thomas and Martha clones are gonna come into it.


(Random addition: I've started another rewatch with a friend and just watched 1x1 and noticed some really lovely foreshadowing that I hope was intentional. When Jim first meets Falcone, Falcone says something about "I love this city, I won't see it die" and Jim says "You make a life of crime sound almost noble" and it is such a lovely parallel with S5 where Jim is essentially taking on the Falcone role and protecting Gotham (with all it's criminal element) against the 'legal' element that would destroy it. Idk, I just got feels.)


Edited 2019-02-17 08:49 pm (UTC)

Since the episode was basically 66% of Jimduardo flirting, I can't fault you for mainly remembering that.

And yes. I'm still not fine about Tabitha's bullshit death, but I liked that Selina got her reaction in. I'm now quietly hoping that Ed will get wind of Oswald's escape plans and bring Babs into the deal so that this animosity can finally be laid to rest as I'm sure Babs would forgive Oswald if he could somehow ensure her and her child's safety.

Lucius definitely deserves more praise and recognition. However, I'm already glad they're using him a lot more this season than they did in the last one. Even better that he got to have all those scenes with Ed in 4x04 because I didn't really know how to appreciate the Ed/Lucius combo before.

Well, it's not as if Harv had a reason to have faith in Ed, right? Not after Haven's destruction, and especially not when he's threatening the precinct with a bomb. Mad respect that Harv solved the riddle under so much time pressure, even if he technically wasn't meant to shine there.

Sometimes I'm not sure if what we call "gay" isn't merely "manly" and "cool" in the eyes of the writers. Not saying that it can't be all those three things simultaneously, but Jim's just too obsessively written as straight for TPTB to intentionally throw gay stuff in for shits and giggles. Or at least that's my interpretation of it. I don't think we're meant to interpret Jim as this super repressed, bisexual mess, even though it's clearly what he is. And I live for it.

Evil!Lee would be so cool. But I doubt they'll give us that. For now, I'm hoping she'll maybe get radical about the refugees' need for food and medicine. I also want to see her bond with Babs over the pregnancy and/or her being Babs' doctor on site. Damn, if they included Lee somehow acknowledging her miscarriage in s2 (without making it an angsty vehicle for Jim/Lee), I might forgive them for the way they fucked up Lee's return here.

LOL. "Tiny angry little goat" made me laugh so much. Bless him. He's the fucking worst but he's also my little garbage fire and I won't let anyone else who doesn't appreciate him talk shit about him.

So I'm taking Jim's need for closeness with Lee as some automatic response brought on by his own idealization of her. His hallucination of her and their two children in s3 etc. I just kind of hope she tentatively sets him straight in a future episode. Hell, if they have to be together, at least wait until the time jump. That way, they can practically handwave all the shitty stuff that makes absolutely no sense.

I kind of want to believe that the pregnancy was just a stupid bluff. But no. Not with that time jump we're about to get. What I'm wondering is why they didn't let more time pass between the conception and the announcement. After all, we're talking about what? A time window of two weeks, maybe? Talk about a rushed season.

Re: The press. But I mean... After Haven, they surely should have contacted Bruce's press contacts? Hundreds of people just died and the government is still stalling.

Re: Escape from New York. Guess I really have to watch that movie, eh?

I'm just wondering if Jeremiah's tunnel is the same tunnel we saw in 5x02. The location wouldn't really work with the map I made since they clearly dug that tunnel to go straight to Wayne Manor.

I'm guessing Jeremiah's little game will start with the next episode. Selina will get wind of him still being alive and going after Bruce, so she will quickly abandon the idea of leaving Gotham after all.

Re: Martha and Thomas. My guess would be that Jeremiah tests them on Alfred first before he uses them against Bruce.

Re: Your random addition. I don't really get your s5!Jim/Falcone comparison. So far, s5!Jim has always made it a point to emphasize that he's protecting civilians -- not criminal lowlifes -- and that these "innocents" deserve supplies. Plus, even though he might be up against the government, we still know that he's got the moral high ground here because he's essentially fighting a corrupt, unscrupulous enemy. And doing the ~right thing means that he has to protect everyone from that enemy's injustice, not just the civilians.

Had a look at the Falcone quote and he was essentially saying that they needed someone to take the fall for the Wayne murders so that the people would feel safe and secure again. But that's essentially what Jim didn't do when he chose to protect Zsasz in 5x04, even though it would've given the refugees a perfectly convenient scapegoat.

In fact, I see that Falcone quote more in s4!Jim, who legitimized Sofia's reign in order to change the power dynamics of the city because he didn't like seeing Oswald at the top. Also, the fact that he stayed quiet about Sofia's involvement in Falcone's death and Pyg's crimes. All to preserve the peace, to keep the people's faith in the GCPD and its great hero. Jim tried playing the game like Falcone did but he screwed up.

Agreed on Lucius. And I'm definitely enjoying his interactions with his fellow genius..!

"Well, it's not as if Harv had a reason to have faith in Ed, right?"
Absolutely this, and he was so totally cool solving that riddle and I just feel so bad for him that it was under those circumstances - I mean, he's not psychic, is he? Couldn't have been expected to know Ed was technically on his side right then.

Lol I don't even know what to think any more about the writers' intent. I'd always say that suggestive gay stuff is never intentional, but at this point it's getting so blatant that I just cannot see how they can't have noticed and I do wonder if they're putting it in as fanservice, whilst making it ambiguous enough to be able to thoroughly no-homo if questioned. But seriously, that 'bullet in the mouth' exchange, ffs...!

At this stage I just really want all of Jim's exes to be done with that shit and steer clear of him. Give him a new relationship if they must, but retreading old ground is becoming pretty unhealthy. Also, Babs and Lee are both meant to be SMART - I just don't see how they'd go for it. (I can see how Babs might go for a roll in the hay for old time's sake, but honestly, the pregnancy thing is really annoying me. It seems OOC to me.)

"After Haven, they surely should have contacted Bruce's press contacts? Hundreds of people just died and the government is still stalling."
Yes, true. I guess they just didn't, for plot reasons. Pretty much every dumb illogical thing is gonna be plot reasons, basically.

"Re: Escape from New York. Guess I really have to watch that movie, eh?"
Haha it's a good movie! But, unpopular opinion here, Escape from LA (which is basically the same thing, but in LA and it's totally ludicrous and silly) is way more fun and I prefer it to the admittedly way higher quality original. Escape from LA is more Gotham :p

"I'm just wondering if Jeremiah's tunnel is the same tunnel we saw in 5x02. The location wouldn't really work with the map I made since they clearly dug that tunnel to go straight to Wayne Manor. "
It could be the same tunnel, or he could just have poached the tunneling gear (?) and dug from under the hotel he was in. That was in the posh area of town, so perhaps corresponds to the posh area across the water..? Or else it's a reallllllly long tunnel...

"Re: Martha and Thomas. My guess would be that Jeremiah tests them on Alfred first before he uses them against Bruce."
Well, you've been spot on about everything so far! I'm just not sure what exact function they're going to play aside from mental trauma...

Yeah, fair enough. I mean, you probably gather from my rambling comments that I'm not one for coming up with smart meta. I just happened to be watching it, and it struck a chord for me. Obviously, Jim is still a police captain rather than a mob boss, but it was the 'going against the powers that be in order to protect this city I love and everyone in it' thing that resonated with me, and I thought it was quite neat book-ending.