Dear God where do I even begin.

OK, I'm not the greatest on meta or conspiracy theory or whatever but first impressions:

What I hated:

Jim and Babs? Really? REALLY? I mean, I know you're stressed and not thinking clearly, Jim, but REALLY? I mean, I kinda hate it less than if he'd got back with Lee (I know, where is she?) but even so UGH.

I think that was about all I outright hated, but it's a big one.

What made me sigh:

Feurioo totally called it on finding Jim's artfully charred badge in the wreckage. Was nice knowing you, Will the Plucky Orphan.

The opening shot of a burning teddy bear was so on the nose I actually did an accidental lol.

What I loved:

Look, I'm not proud, but I just don't know who I find more attractive rn: Harv, Foxy, Alfred or Zsasz.

Harvey "Don't ever make me do something like that again" just, the love is so strong. I'll even take 'unrequited' love, but do not tell me that guy ain't canon crazy for the Gordon :p

Foxy and Ed working together was so excellent. That "If you tell anyone that, I'll deny it". Also, Foxy so easily overpowering Ed for that file. And Ed's genuine little smile when he was useful. I really like the solving of the 'who blew up Haven' mystery too - the fact it was Ed (well, Riddler, I guess?) is keeping me interested. He's still the worst though. I liked that old lady, she was a baller. (Although it begs the question why a single old lady was living totally comfortably in an entire well-appointed apartment block when everyone's apparently struggling for accommodation etc?)

Alfred's interaction with Bruce this ep (and the little signal thing) was just gold. I love that bit of Alfred dialogue. Also, he's super hot this ep. "Let's go find her then" (I paraphrase, you know the bit I mean).

Zsasz. I just effing CAN'T. I think he's actually my favourite bit of the episode. Mainly "I would never take credit for someone else's work". LOL YASS. I love how consistently bastardy he is. He's unremitting and only out for himself and I'm here for it. Blowing that kiss! THE MILKSHAKE. "That's a nice table". That whole bit of dialogue about how he'd be covered in tally scars if he'd killed that many people and Alvarez can strip search him because he's handsome. I'm dying. Also, he's still so well dressed. And completely emotionless. Definite highlight of the season.

Also, Jim CHALLENGING HIM TO A DUEL dear god... hot, but also, Jim is totally losing it. You could kinda tell when he went straight to business mode after the explosion and he's not let up, at some point he's gonna crack. (I really hope it involves a Harvey hug.)


Other stuff:

Oh yeah, the radio was in the GCPD all along, so of course it didn't get blown up.

It's still continuing to ruin my life every time they show the pan shot of the river and it's like, about half a mile wide and obviously swimmable.

Interested to see how Jeremiah survives this one, because we know he's gonna. Go Selina with the multiple stabbing though.

Joker and Harley. I mean, I'm not invested, so I just thought it was kinda cool tbh. I didn't expect to like them, and I kinda like them. They're elegant. I imagine so many people will be up in arms over them, though.

Where the hell is Dogward?

Overall: LOVED IT.

I mean, I kinda hate it less than if he'd got back with Lee (I know, where is she?) but even so UGH.

He still could get back together with Lee (see that prediction in tunglo's comment), so they could be killing two birds with one stone here. I've currently also reached the UGH stage. :|

Look, I'm not proud, but I just don't know who I find more attractive rn: Harv, Foxy, Alfred or Zsasz.

Why are you not proud for finding all those guys attractive? I would (maybe) side-eye you for calling Ed "hot" with that hair, but in the end, who am I to judge? Gotta admit, ever since I saw Anthony in Barry I can't find Zsasz as attractive as I used to. Dude looks bangin' in ordinary clothes.

I'll even take 'unrequited' love, but do not tell me that guy ain't canon crazy for the Gordon :p

Have you seen s4? Who else would've taken Jim back knowing what Harvey knows? Totally, officially Jim-crazy if you ask me. Then again, I have a theory that everybody on this show has a crush on Jim.

Also, Foxy so easily overpowering Ed for that file.

I'm just going to interpret it as Ed being into Lucius' little game from the get-go. Unless he's really meant to be a wimp when he's currently not having one of these blackouts. And I'm not even going to comment on why that setup with the old lady made absolutely no sense.

THE MILKSHAKE.

It seems he also had popcorn! :D Our predictions are coming true, lol.

at some point he's gonna crack. (I really hope it involves a Harvey hug.)

Do you wanna bet it's at the latest when Babs tells him she's pregnant? And, yeah, it will definitely involve some comfort from Harv unless they suddenly find Lee somewhere and decided to fuck it and throw her and Jim together again.

Interested to see how Jeremiah survives this one, because we know he's gonna.

If Ecco somehow survived that bullet in her head, I imagine Jeremiah will be having little trouble to survive his injuries. I could also imagine that it's something he will use to strengthen his little cult.

God I hope that prediction doesn't come true.

"Why are you not proud for finding all those guys attractive?"
LOL I'm a little concerned I probably come across as massively thirsty online these days but... it probably wouldn't be inaccurate haha.

"Then again, I have a theory that everybody on this show has a crush on Jim."
It's true, and he seems bemused by it (tbh I am also bemused by it. He's pretty, but his personality sucks!)

"I'm just going to interpret it as Ed being into Lucius' little game from the get-go"
Idk if this is hotter, or if 'Foxy is lowkey really strong' is hotter, but I'll take either.

"If Ecco somehow survived that bullet in her head, I imagine Jeremiah will be having little trouble to survive his injuries."
I mean, tbf, people do survive multiple stabbings pretty frequently irl. When will people in Gotham ever learn that you should always do a headshot?!

God I hope that prediction doesn't come true.

Pretty sure it will at this point. The timing and Babs' absence is that 5x01 opening scene is very suspicious. Plus, with Lee's continued absence, there's not much time for her to get pregnant. (Yes, I'm just going to assume that one of them will get pregnant because there's no way Jim Gordon won't have children in this show universe.)

LOL I'm a little concerned I probably come across as massively thirsty online these days but... it probably wouldn't be inaccurate haha.

I mean, you can't really out-thirst me. I go for everyone. Thought that Jim/Kathryn would've been hot as fuck in s3. (In case anyone else reads this, it's all in good fun!)

It's true, and he seems bemused by it (tbh I am also bemused by it. He's pretty, but his personality sucks!)

My working theory is that Jim is the Gotham writers' Gary Stu, and that's why everybody automatically falls for him in the show. Just no idea why they needed to make him so goddamn dark over time.

Idk if this is hotter, or if 'Foxy is lowkey really strong' is hotter, but I'll take either.

¿Por que no los dos?

When will people in Gotham ever learn that you should always do a headshot?!

[insert gif of Ecco giving that bullet in her head a shake]

I just have my fingers in my ears going 'LALALALA' at the moment on the baby thing :(

Hahaha fair enough...

Jim truly is the ketchup of this show. (Goes with anything ;)

"[insert gif of Ecco giving that bullet in her head a shake]"
Yeah, actually, you have a very good point. Sigh, Gotham.

I'm going to start with the lines that made me laugh inappropriately: I did not expect you to go soft, Jim. Actually, I did. (Cue here: "That's what your momma said, Oswald." And everybody in that room would've been DEAD.)

I was thoroughly entertained. This episode was a feast. (I think? There more I think about it, the more I don't know how I feel about some things.)


First, the stuff that I thought was more or less A+:

- ZSASZ. He was gold. And he had popcorn up there.* And a milkshake. The canned peaches, the crack about Alvarez. It was a hoot.

*


- Ed/Lucius. Goddamn. I didn't expect that smolder between Ed and Lucius. So what is it that you would like? That's how you start shipper fantasies, gents.

Must admit that I loved that we actually got an investigation into the explosion. Bare-bones, as it was, I loved it. The minute they got on the roof, it was clear that it had been Ed. I truly hope that you find whoever did this and you make them pay only sealed it. Thought that the showdown with that old lady was a bit anticlimactic as it gave us nothing that hadn't already been obvious by that point. For one, I was hoping we'd get the official confirmation that Ed also shot the chopper down.

- "Looks like you need a new zsaszpect." That's not how it was delivered, but it made me smile.

- I did not expect the Soothsayer/Jeremiah connection, and I'm still not sure what that was truly about. I checked imdb.com, and yes, it was our Soothsayer guy (Sykes) who got shot at the end of 5x02.

- Jim with a dirty face and suit but immaculate hair. <333 I will probably post gifs in another comment.


Stuff I'm not sure how I feel about it yet:

- The lack of Lee. Sadface. I get it if Morena was busy doing other stuff. Still disappointing.

- The worrying lack of Ed the Dog.

- Jeremiah and Ecco. Not into it, but I know objectively that it wasn't bad.

- Pretty much everything that had to do with Oswald. While I loved every scene he was in, there's just something supremely unsatisfying about how the episode started with him and the way it all escalated. I think I might need a rewatch to know exactly what I feel iffy about, but I'm really not a fan of his characterization at this point. Officially stopped being fun when he made his casual slave remark in 5x03.

- Jim. The Zsasz send-off and his scene with Babs play into this. Not sure if I hate it or if I'm quietly intrigued. At any rate, I love that canon confirmed once again that Jim Gordon makes awful sex decisions while under an extreme amount of stress. Pro-tip for the next time: Let him have a threesome with Zsasz and Harv instead. Kudos if that also ends in Never ever ask me to do anything like that again.

- My ~problematic confession: I'm (sort of) into Jim/Babs? I mean, I think it's a terrible, cliché development for both characters, but I thought it was hot because they're both hot (I mean, have you seen Babs this episode? *wolf howl*) and I've always found their chemistry believable.

Edit: If they're really just using this to give us Babs Gordon, then at least there's a good chance that this was a one-time thing.

That said, I thought their dynamic at the end was a tad too similar to the one Jim and Sofia had at the end of 4x04. The woman tries to initiate something, Jim rebuffs her, then he changes his mind and goes in for the kill. Eye roll. But: I'm glad they didn't make him seem taller than her. Will sleep on it and revisit the scene tomorrow.


So-so:

- Didn't care much about the Bruce/Selina scenes. I was too focused on the Ed mystery and the Jim/Oswald conflict. Thought it lacked a bit of a punch. What was good: Alfred and Bruce, and the fact that Selina got her revenge in the end.


???:

- A bit confusing: Zsasz supposedly has his own territory but no men? (Don't think that was his territory, by the way. Otherwise, Jim and co. would've known from the start that it was him.)

- Jim's been in contact with his allies across the river (= woman's voice on the radio) for weeks? I feel as if it's something the audience should have been aware of. His hopeful speeches would've made a lot more sense if we'd known there was actually somebody promising him and his people aid.

- The death toll of over 300 seemed pretty small for the number of people I assumed had been housed at Haven. I mean, they said it had 250 apartments and they always kept talking about more and more people flooding in. It all started with 150 refugees in 5x01. For reference, Oswald says in 5x03: Jim, is this really necessary? I did just save, I don't know, hundreds of people.

- Did Ed regain only that particular memory? Was it Riddler who fired the RPG? Does this mean on-screen!Ed is Ed? Or does Riddler have amnesia? Why did he try to make Ed appear in 5x01? Why did he write that note on his hand? I'm now fairly sure that he isn't being mind-controlled because the note suggests he's planning ahead. Why did he write it down instead of killing the woman right then and there? (I know, probably plot reasons.)

What is his motive? He didn't seem to have a stake in the turf war and, apart from the whole Lee debacle, he technically shouldn't have beef with Jim?! WTF? Where did he even get the money/stuff to trade to get that RPG in the first place?! Or is he just out to sow as much chaos as possible? (Pretty sure that Jeremiah wasn't the one behind the graffiti. If he truly wanted to start a war with Oswald, he wouldn't spend his time watching his sheeple dig a tunnel.)

- I thought it was ridiculous how Jim told Lucius to take a look at the scene. I mean, had Ed not showed up, it would have been just him, right? Add to that the fact that he also seems to be overseeing all the Wayne tech. Poor guy.

Edited 2019-01-27 03:43 pm (UTC)

I liked the Foxma, the gobblepot vibes, and Zsasz being his usual self. Also I'm still into Ed's hair, it takes me back to my emo days. And Alvarez. <3 (Though what about his wife? Where's she at? The show needs more Alvarez storyline going on.)

The investigation was fun but the random old lady living in comfort in the building opposite... I know I'm supposed to just ignore the stupidity and the plot holes but I *can't* quite manage it.

Jim/Babs. Ugh. My other half has said since the end of S3 it's coming but I've been hoping not. If his full prediction of 'Barbara has his kid, dies and Jim/Lee bring up Batgirl together' comes to pass I'll never hear the end of it. :/

Ugh. Your other half is right. Not sure why I didn't see it before, but of course, this show would make Barbara the incubator for Jim Gordon's baby and then let her die to add some unnecessary drama and give Jim a "good" reason to name the child after her.

This might also explain her absence in the 5x01 opening. She's still pregnant/currently giving birth/already dead. The opening is set in Day 391 whereas the plot picks up on Day 87. There's a little over 43 weeks between those two scenes.

Really hoping they won't make Lee a part of this. There is no good reason for her to ever go back to Jim. But let's be real, that prediction sounds exactly like something the show would do without hesitation to two of the three female main characters it has left. *groans*

Replying to siyamau's comment from here:

Yes to radio guy being a baddie. It's some kind of government conspiracy, right? It has to be. They're trying to contain something in Gotham?

New theory: I'm fairly sure it's absolutely wrong, but what if "the government" (= unhelpful party communicating with Jim on the radio) controls Ed? Pretty sure that Lucius mentioned the chopper incident again (It was an RPG, like the one that took down the chopper.) because we'll soon learn that this was also Ed.

But: It seems as if he neither has a good reason nor something to gain from actively sabotaging Jim and Oswald. If he had, he'd swooped right in to get it after his plans succeeded. However, "the government" has something to gain from it. They didn't allow Jim to have supplies flown in. When Bruce attempted to in 5x01, the chopper got conveniently shot down and "the government" later argued they couldn't do anything due to Gotham's unsafe air space.

I'm not sure what whoever did the graffiti tried to accomplish. At first, I assumed that the plan was to start a gang war with Oswald in order to rid him of his territory. Retrospectively, however, it doesn't make a lot of sense to first incapacitate all these gangs by killing their leaders and most of their members and then expect them to unite and successfully move against Oswald. Technically, Oswald should have easily won that war. So was this maybe intended to help him after all? We'll never know because his people defected before things could get heated.

There were no radio conversations in 5x03, so we do not know what "the government" knew or thought about Haven and what they promised or didn't promise. We have this one radio conversation in 5x04, but the female voice indicates that it's the ally from the mainland we already heard at the end of 5x01:

JIM: This is James Gordon. Who am I speaking to?

WOMAN: A friend who wants you to know you have allies across the river. We will find a way to help you.

Note: The episode transcript refers to her as "woman".

In 5x04, we hear the following exchange between the two:

WALKER: I'm working on getting you help.

JIM: You've been promising me help for weeks. I have bodies lined up in the streets.

WALKER: You have every right to be upset, Captain. But I'm doing everything I can to make sure that you and your...

JIM [switches radio off]: Yeah.

Note: The transcript now refers to our mystery woman as "Walker". Please do not try to google the name. You'll only spoil yourself. (No worries, I fortunately only saw two small things that seem to hold little relevance to the plot.)

Now, what I've left out in the above quote, is the detailed report about dead, injured or missing people Jim gives this Walker woman. We can assume he's given her other detailed reports like that over weeks. Detailed enough that she could have somehow planned the attack on Haven and executed it with Ed's help? Unsure. But I still think it's a better guess than Jim's own assumption: There was an incursion by several of the gangs. Any one of them could've done it.

As for the containment theory... I'm not sure what would've suddenly needed containing. Especially since, if it's that bad, I think Jim and everyone else should be aware of it by Day 87 in No Man's Land.

Another theory: Maybe Gotham's a testing ground for something? And they're not allowing them supplies because those are the variables of the experiment? (I know. Makes even less sense.)

Edited 2019-01-28 06:33 pm (UTC)

"Pretty sure that Lucius mentioned the chopper incident again (It was an RPG, like the one that took down the chopper.) because we'll soon learn that this was also Ed. "
OK, that does actually seem like it might be an intentional 'clue' as to plot? Orrrr a red herring...

Containment as in, containing their freaky supervillain crime element? Seal them all off on the island and let them fight it all out and kill each other so the police don't have to? Could also explain government sabotage, tbh.

Lol Gotham is certainly a testing ground for a lot of things already, what with Indian Hill and everything...

As long as they show us who shot the chopper down, I don't particularly care if it was Ed or not. Since Babs gave Jim a lead on a guy who sells RPGs, I'm pretty sure we'll soon either learn who's responsible for the chopper incident or the reason why Ed does the things he does.

Re: Containment. I guess my train of thought was that if they suddenly decide to abandon the city, why did they even make an attempt at evacuating people in the first place? If the criminal element is such a big, known problem, it doesn't make sense to me that the evacuation would fail so suddenly. (Which it apparently did because Alfred and Selina didn't get out, even though they were supposed to get out.)

Not even sure if we're assuming it was Ed now...

Hrm, I'm assuming they evacuated as many citizens as possible before they abandoned it, then the remainder were just seen as collateral damage? And Alfred and Selina hesitated for too long before they got out. Like, the mainland I think would be assuming that Bruce and anyone associated with him would have got out really quickly, because money privilege?

I'm still assuming it was Ed because Lucius made that throwaway comment about an RPG also being involved in the chopper incident. So far, Ed's been the only person to have an RPG on-screen, so he seems like the best suspect.

Technically, Alfred and Selina should have gotten out. The doctor in 4x22 informed Bruce: This is the last ambulance leaving for the boats. That's why I'm assuming that the evacuation was suddenly stopped for whatever reason. But, honestly, I don't really think the show will ever get into that.

New theory: Ed is a sleeper agent. Literally. Strange could have sold his services to the government (for asylum?) or to some baddie (for supplies necessary to continue his work?).

I know I wrote in another comment that the fact that Ed left the note on his hand, could mean that he thinks for himself. But: Why, for example, doesn't he leave voice messages for himself on his little recorder? Remember, in 5x02, Tank described off-screen!Ed as, stiff, [a] man of few words. In a daze, actually. (emphasis mine).

I've also been convinced for the longest time that the 5x01 opening scene might be relevant to the mystery at hand (even though my brain responsibly tells me that Gotham is not the type of show with enough pre-planning to give these clues). Anyway. The way the record skips, the music stops, he smiles to himself and grabs his gun. At first, I thought that the power went out and that it maybe was a signal that the enemies are approaching. These days, I'm wondering if the record might be what used to activate him. And he smiles because, finally, it's not working.

(I know. I KNOW. I just... live for mysteries. I also know it makes little sense to assume that music activates Ed when he usually seems to go into blackout mode right after he went to sleep.)

Other things:
- Off-screen!Ed seems to wear the hat at all times. Or at least it's always near Ed when he wakes up.

- Ed/someone must have had intimate knowledge of Haven to plan the attack (location of the oil tank).

- Assumption: Ed shot the chopper down.

1. We now know he has access to RPGs. 2. His base is close to the Low Boyz' territory. Maybe that's why the chopper went down there? 3. We see Oswald and Tabitha have a reaction to the chopper sound. Just not Ed. (Bruce and Jim are waiting for it to land, so no need to see their reaction.)


Edited 2019-01-28 07:22 pm (UTC)

- What is that sound we hear before we see Ed wake up? (Edit: Doesn't appear in the episode transcript, probably meaningless.)

- Ed's "inmate" conclusion makes no sense because there's clearly a letter smudged between the "A" and the "T". As a former Arkham inmate, it also seems a bit weird that his mind would immediately jump to Blackgate.

- Even upon rewatch, the Ed/Lucius vibes are strong in that file room scene. Underappreciated line: I don't tend to carry snacks on me. (Mainly because Lucius should have told him that he already *is* a snack.)

- Still don't get the Sykes/Jeremiah connection. Were the Soothsayers working for Jeremiah?

- Something I've asked myself multiple times: Why did they even include Jim shooting Oswald's bad knee in 5x01 when nothing changes about his injury? He still wears a leg brace and doesn't even need a cane.

- I don't understand why Jim even tries to argue with his This is not justice. It's not who we are brand idealism in Zsasz's "trial". A better way to win the people over would've been to argue that they won't be safer by punishing scapegoats. If the culprit is still out there, this will happen again.

- If Babs is really supposed to be concerned about Haven's fate (JIM: You're worried Sirens could be next.), she should've been involved in that investigation.

- The guillotine is such a great touch.

- I love how they're pulling that illogical shit with the old woman but at least have Ed walk all the stairs up to her apartment. I mean it.

- Having rewatched this scene in its entirety, I think it's too bad they killed Will. Not because I particularly care about the character or his relationship with Jim, but because he gave the refugees and their plight a face. And a face, that's what they're desperately lacking in this episode, IMO.

It's why, ultimately, the Jim/Oswald conflict didn't work for me and I felt nothing while Oswald managed to manipulate the faceless crowd. (I mean, what a gut punch it would have been instead to see Will defect to Oswald?)

Edited 2019-02-01 11:00 pm (UTC)