Holy shit that ending.

Stuff I loved:

Selina. Selina is excellent in this ep. I liked all the subtle cat-isms. Her casually cartwheeling over parked cars. I liked her and Bruce going into the Dark Zone. I liked their fight scenes.

Harvey. I mean, obviously I loved Harv, but particularly in this. His characterisation is so consistent and his doting on Jim is canon. Also, he is hilarious, and his hair is still spectacular.

I'm just, really invested in Penguin and Edward (the dog version). And in Penguin's basically just desperate desire to be liked. It's pure tragic horror. The choir was awful and hilarious. Also, bye bye Penn. As horrible as Os is, I was so grateful when Edward toddled back over to him: being abandoned by your dog is a step too sad even for the worst villain.

The total baller of a kid who not only escaped from the Dark Zone but got Jim free too. I hope he didn't get blown up. (ETA: Jim sharing his rations with Plucky Kid felt a bit TOO saccharine for me to start with - although totally IC for Jim. But I loved the kid later helping him. And I thought deputising him was cute AF, and "I'm allergic to pineapple" tempered the saccharine-ness of the earlier bit for me nicely.)

People actually running out of ammo.

How generally camp the whole thing is.

Jim getting his absolute sass on with Os in the jail cell.


Stuff I wasn't keen on:

They're kiiiinda balancing it, but the whole 'Saint Jim' thing is starting to feel a bit heavy handed. I sort of wanna see him be bad now. Wondering if the explosion is gonna be a catalyst to him finally running out of fucks.

Nah, actually, I can't think of anything else I notably did not like.

The whole overarching situation is still bugging the crap out of me though to be honest. THERE IS NO WAY PEOPLE WOULD JUST STAY IN THE CITY AND NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE OVER THAT PERFECTLY NAVIGABLE RIVER.

Other stuff: Os's weird undies make a reappearance, in detailed glory. I have zero clue what's going on with that black things under the baggy white onesie thing. [EDIT] bulletproof vest?


But mainly, holy shit, that ending D: [EDIT] Thinking about the whole 'who set the explosion?' question... I can only assume, so far, that it was Jeremiah? Because Ecco/Harley (I actually didn't mind her characterisation so far - sinister enough to make her not too 'kooky'. I bet Harley fans are going to be spitting though.) was able to sneak in to leave that message. Cue, presumably, Jim having guilt trips over not telling anyone about that, or searching the building post that happening. I guess his radio got blown up, too? Also, it would explain why Jeremiah wasn't there (?) at the church when Selina went to find him and had her fight with Ecco?

Edited 2019-01-19 02:18 pm (UTC)

Agreed re: Selina. Didn't really expect them to salvage the mess from 4x01, but they did. The only thing I need from her now is a reaction to Tabby's death.

The Babs/Harvey moment was super unexpected. That BroTP is canon. I'm just not very fond of her obsession with killing Oswald. Here's hoping she'll be over it in a few episodes. (Not even because I fear for him, but because I think she has the potential for more from a character perspective.)

Oswald and Edward are precious as fuck. I love it when he does his dog daddy voice to threaten gruesome things.

I don't expect the kid to be alive. As soon as Jim promised to protect him, I was pretty sure he's a goner. The deputy thing only sealed it in my eyes. Plus, I'm sure it's no coincidence that the most important characters were already outside. (I'll assume that Alfred and Lucius, as well as Harper, were somewhere else off-screen.)

Gotta admit that I didn't think of a bulletproof vest yet. (Wouldn't he wear it over his underwear?)

The only thing that makes no sense to me re: suspecting Jeremiah is the way Ed features into it. Because, for me, there's no question that the person who framed Oswald must be the same who now struck against Haven. (Otherwise, if they hadn't weakened the territories around Jim's territory, it would've simply been up for grabs.) HOWEVER: If Jeremiah is the one who controls Ed, 1.) How does he do it? 2.) What does he train his little sheeple for? 3.) Why would he attack before he has all of them trained? And without Harley/Ecco? Idk.

Mmm, also noticed by my friend from E2 rewatch - Babs was totally wearing a mourning armband when she lays into Jim in E2 ;__;

I mean, her obsession with killing Oswald does at least seem IC to me. She's super vengeful and that WAS her girlfriend he stabbed through the heart.

"I love it when he does his dog daddy voice to threaten gruesome things."
THIS. I mean, they had me at 'dog', but I cannot resist a terrible villain who still dotes on his pup.

"As soon as Jim promised to protect him, I was pretty sure he's a goner."
Ugh. You're so right. I am naive for being even a touch hopeful. I should know what TV writers are like after 14 seasons of SPN ffs.

"I'm sure it's no coincidence that the most important characters were already outside."
Yep, this. I mean, where WAS Alfred? I'm guessing Lucius and Harper were most likely at the precinct (at least, I hope). I 100% doubt they'll not kill Alfred, I'm pretty certain Lucius will be OK, and they best not come for Harper I swear to god...

"Wouldn't he wear it over his underwear?"
You'd think. Although maybe he really IS that paranoid? Also, it really REALLY looks like a binder, but I just cannot imagine that they'd be that inclusive, even by mild suggestion... I'm happy people are getting their headcanons upheld, though :)

"Because, for me, there's no question that the person who framed Oswald must be the same who now struck against Haven."
This is true.
Idk. I could believe it was Jeremiah who framed Oswald (I mean, leaving graffitti is Joker MO aside from anything else...) I can't even keep track of anyone's motivation at this stage, nobody seems to be operating logically! I somehow don't feel that it's Jeremiah controlling Ed though?

Didn't notice the armband myself. Great catch!

Yes, Babs's revenge is totally IC. I guess I'm mainly mad about it because Tabby's death was shitty and now it's a shitty thing that drives Barbara. Someone told me yesterday that, apparently, they had different plans for Tabs and Penn, but then those fell through due to the shortened season and now we've got this. :/

Honestly, if they let that precious dog die, I will scream.

Now that you're asking about Alfred, I really need a good Bruce/Alfred moment after all those shenanigans with Selina last episode.

Someone else actually pointed the binder thing out to me and, what can I say, I want to believe. Not necessarily in Gotham's inclusiveness but in the possibility that we as fans can actually have nice things. I mean, so far, I'm almost surprised that nobody's commented on his underwear or turned it into a joke yet.

So let's assume that Jeremiah is responsible for the graffiti. Then why did Ed provide him with the location to the Street Demons' stronghold? Or why did he need Ed in the first place? He has his own people.

It really hits home when you rewatch the scene and how clearly in mourning she is.

OK. I've been saying all along that I'm glad that they're wrapping up whilst the series is still excellent, but that's the first thing I've read that makes me absolutely curse them cutting the run short :(

I honestly doubt they'll let the dog die. Kids, maybe, but that dog would be a step too far.

Yeah. I'm here for Bruce and Alfred <3

I'm fully here for the binder interpretation. I just can't quite believe it was intentional. But I'm here for the headcanon.

I really, really want to have some kind of critical, intelligent answer to that, but my brain is generally spaghetti when it comes to meta or theories, because my memory for facts and plot is so bad. Why would Ed have had to have told him the location? Could he not have found out independently?

Apparently, they also had more in store for Mr. Penn. :(

Honestly, I agree re: the binder. If they can't even give Oswald a short-term love interest, I don't believe that they're suddenly trying to be trans-inclusive here. However, still happy for every fan who's happy about it! And, I mean, also happy for myself because I never thought we'd ever see Oswald's canon underwear. It's the most skin he's shown in years! :3

Re: The potential Ed/Jeremiah connection. It just seems weird to assume that suddenly both, independently, had a reason to visit the Street Demons' base shortly after each other. Even more curious that soon afterward the gang gets wiped out and Oswald is framed for it.

What was Ed even doing at the Street Demons base? So far, we've only seen him investigating his weird blackouts. His map doesn't even show the gang territories, so there's no reason for us to assume that he has (had) issues with them in the past or is involved in their turf war. Hell, we don't even know what his relationship with Oswald is at this point in time.

HOWEVER, judging from Tank's words about off-screen!Ed making sure that the Street Demons leader was at the base when he got there, it's safe to conclude that off-screen!Ed intended to kill them. Which, again, would make it a pretty big coincidence when suddenly Jeremiah waltzed in only to spray his little Penguin graffiti.

Another thing that seems a little strange to me: When Ed asks Tank about the demeanor of off-screen!Ed, he suggests both the attributes of his Ed and his Riddler persona (e.g. nerdy vs. flamboyant). So far, I had assumed we were seeing Riddler here, judging from the way he tried to challenge Ed to appear in the mirror in 5x01, but maybe it's not that easy.

My new working theory is that Ed and Riddler have finally merged into one. It would only make sense after s4 basically showed us Ed falling in love with Lee and Riddler doing so quickly after (for whatever reason). It also seems as if it would be an important, maybe even necessary development for Ed to become the Riddler he's destined to be. Plus, it's also a neat red herring because, naturally, Ed -- and maybe even parts of the audience? -- would assume his other personality is taking over during the blackouts when it's maybe really someone controlling him externally. (And, yeah, I do realize that the "control" theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.)

Edited 2019-01-23 05:37 pm (UTC)

"My new working theory is that Ed and Riddler have finally merged into one."
Honestly, that would make sense. It's difficult to determine which personality he is at any given time any more (well, for me anyway) and he's unsuccessful at goading the 'other one' to appear in the mirror. I always assumed external control (at least to some degree, even if it was only to 'unleash Mr Hyde' during the blackouts) and I always assumed Strange, but you're right in saying that, why WOULD it be Strange? I can't really see any motivation from anyone at this point, so I'm very interested to see where it's going.

The only one with a potential motivation would be Lee. But I doubt that they're returning to the Lee/Ed thing in this season. Somebody could technically want to use Ed against Oswald, but if that were the case, it surely would've hurt Oswald more to see Ed move publicly against him? I find it weird to imagine that someone would simply end up using him as a lackey... Idk.

There was some stuff I disliked, but most of that also made me laugh. So, who cares?

What I loved:

- OSWALD AND JIM. What can I say? They're my faves and this ep was a shipper's wet dream. If their little prison intermezzo doesn't inspire some delicious s5 fic, I'll just consider this ship dead.

- OSWALD AND PENN. :(( I hope Penn doesn't stay dead because I'm now officially on board for Oswald/Penn. I mean, I already was before, obviously, but now it's pretty much gotten its canon blessing (I said he's mine.). And that's the only thing I care to acknowledge regarding Penn's fate in this episode.

- I liked that they at least pretended to care about the lack of ammo and food. I liked that, very predictably, Jim gave his rations to the kid. I like that Jim's lack of sleep was acknowledged.

- I loved that we saw Oswald's underwear again and that everybody is free to interpret the little black thing underneath as a binder.

- I loved the guy who said Look at what they did to my... friend. Because, to me, it totally sounded as if he wanted to say "boyfriend" but censored himself instead.

- More talk about the Dark Zone. And we get to go there again. YAY!

- OSWALD'S FLOOFY HAIR. BABS'S FLOOFY HAIR.

- OLGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

- Oswald's scream after Pup went willingly. Not sure if it was intended to mirror Oswald's scream in 4x03 last season when he discovered that Ed had been unfrozen.

- Selina's I'm not yours to lose. Generally the ways in which she asserted her independence from Bruce.

- The Bruce/Selina fight scenes. Not the best the show's ever done, but nonetheless a nice change from the dull gunfights.

- Bruce's water purification system. I was just thinking yesterday that I wanted to see Bruce using Wayne tech to do something for the common folk.

- Small stuff like Edward the Dog licking Oswald's face, the Gertrud Kapelput Memorial Choir, the kid being allergic to pineapple.


What I disliked:

- Harley. This isn't a jab at the actress or her performance, I'm just not terribly into the concept of Jeremiah suddenly having a psychotic girlfriend. Kudos if they somehow manage to subvert the Jeremiah/Harley relationship, but I doubt it.

- Jim's argument re: being better in order to show yourself "deserving of help" at the beginning. However, if it was merely included to show that Jim isn't yet desperate enough to say Fuck my pretty principles!, then I understand.

- Hypothetical: If they use that little boy's senseless death to inspire to inspire some Righteous Rage in Jim. Or Man Pain. Unfortunately, the way it was set up, I have to believe that the little guy's dead. It would otherwise be too good to be true to have Jim promise to protect him and actually keep that. (To be honest, though, I was quietly hoping that the boy was a plant all along.)

- Lee's continued absence.

- Babs going all alone to face Oswald? They could have at least given her a three-lady squad to make it look like as if she'd expected to face Oswald and his goons.


Question Marks:

- Who framed Oswald? Why? And how do they control Ed? (Note: This person also took care of the Undead, the Low Boyz, and the Street Demons.)

- Who bombed Haven? Was it the same person? Why?

- Something I did not quite get: Jim openly says, Government already thinks we don't deserve help. We have to show otherwise. But then a few seconds later, he privately worries about people finding out that the government abandoned them. Isn't that exactly what he just told them?

- Whoever has taken care of The Low Boyz, the Street Demons, Oswald (as well as the Undead), and now Haven, they've basically managed to destabilize one half of Gotham. Still up: The Sirens, Firefly, Fries, Scarecrow, Zsasz.



I agree with siyamau that the most likely candidate is Jeremiah since we saw Ecco looking at that map.

- (Where are Jim's allies across the river? And how is he supposed to contact them now?)


I got a little confused while I was counting the minor characters with lines, but again, the guys far outclassed the women by at least 3:1.

Edited 2019-01-19 03:23 pm (UTC)

"If their little prison intermezzo doesn't inspire some delicious s5 fic, I'll just consider this ship dead"
It's so going to. They were hilarious though, I was so overjoyed at Jim's top-grade snark when they were locked up together. And when they had to go back-to-back to pick the key up, I was laughing so hard. Brilliant.

Oswald and Penn give me such Mr Burns and Smithers vibes. I'm sad Penn bit it :(

"I liked that they at least pretended to care about the lack of ammo and food. I liked that, very predictably, Jim gave his rations to the kid. I like that Jim's lack of sleep was acknowledged."
All. Of. This.

"I loved the guy who said Look at what they did to my... friend. Because, to me, it totally sounded as if he wanted to say "boyfriend" but censored himself instead."
Oh, you are totally right! I didn't pick up on that.

Olga was spectacular and I hope that she does SO WELL and doesn't get cannon-foddered. Also, Os best appreciate her dammit.

"Bruce's water purification system. I was just thinking yesterday that I wanted to see Bruce using Wayne tech to do something for the common folk."
Yes this, but also, if they're having to filter their own water then how the hell IS Jim washing his sparkling white shirts?!!

"If they use that little boy's senseless death to inspire to inspire some Righteous Rage in Jim. Or Man Pain. Unfortunately, the way it was set up, I have to believe that the little guy's dead. It would otherwise be too good to be true to have Jim promise to protect him and actually keep that. (To be honest, though, I was quietly hoping that the boy was a plant all along.)"
Yeah. I'm hoping he's OK, because I (against all odds) liked him. And if he's dead (because Jim can't have nice things -__-) then I hope that it instigates said lack of fucks in Jim, rather than ~Mangst~. I wanna see him start to fight a bit dirty at this stage tbh.

"Something I did not quite get: Jim openly says, Government already thinks we don't deserve help. We have to show otherwise. But then a few seconds later, he privately worries about people finding out that the government abandoned them. Isn't that exactly what he just told them?"
Very good point. Although, perhaps he's alluded to it, but hasn't told people the full story? In a 'they haven't sent help but it doesn't mean they won't' as opposed to 'they have said categorically that they have abandoned us' way. As, to tell people the full story would totally kill morale..?

I'm basically at this stage just picturing Fries and Firefly engaged in all-out cartoon war with each other whilst totally forgetting any other factions exist and I find the idea really amusing.

I miss Zsasz. I hope he shows up soon.

You're spot-on with that Burns/Smithers comparison. Only, in this case, the Smithers actually had a small chance of it ever becoming a mutual thing. Btw, how did you interpret Penn's Everyone hated you. line? Did he flee because everybody hated Oswald but he wanted Oswald to be loved? That's how I took it, tbh. But, in that case, it would've made more sense if he'd stayed behind, IMO.

Honestly, I don't expect to see Olga again. She'll make it!

You're honestly assuming that Jim Gordon washes his own shirts? I thought it's canon now that Harvey carries his laundry. :P

I mean, even if that kid's still alive, where will they go with his plot? It will only get worse for him until they find a way to beat Jeremiah at his own game and/or manage to secure support from across the river. I have absolutely no idea in which direction they'd be planning to go with Jim now. I guess a lot of it depends on the question if he and Oswald will form a short-term coalition against whoever wronged them both.

Re: Jim lying to the people about the government. But how long will he be able to keep up that false hope? It'll only be a matter of time until his words must ring hollow and dangerously naive.

You know what? Now I'm imagining Firefly and Fries fighting their little war while Zsasz watches. And every other minute, he will ask one of them to either ice his Cola or pop his popcorn.


Edited 2019-01-19 04:13 pm (UTC)

I honestly never really noticed the whole Oswald/Penn thing until you pointed it out here, but rewatching that - yeah. Yes. My friend said that she really expected Penn to follow 'Everyone hated you' with 'but I loved you' - as if he was about to say something (maybe more along the lines of 'except me'?) before he died. I mean, I guess Penn always seemed a bit weaselly so if /everyone/ left, then he'd just go along with it..? Idek. I guess they just had to emphasise that everyone had abandoned Os, even his dog.

Olga is one of the most interesting characters though, ha.

"You're honestly assuming that Jim Gordon washes his own shirts? I thought it's canon now that Harvey carries his laundry."
Well, good point. Maybe nobody is washing his shirts, he just has a vast stockpile of identical ones and wears a new one every day :p

You're so right. The kid is gonna be dead, to punish Jim. TV writers suck.

There's gotta be a coalition at some point. I'm guessing all plot is leading up to the endgame of Jim, Harv, Os and Ed vs Evil.

"Re: Jim lying to the people about the government. But how long will he be able to keep up that false hope? It'll only be a matter of time until his words must ring hollow and dangerously naive."
True, but what's his alternative? I'm guessing he's just hoping that something will change before he has to come clean.

"Firefly and Fries fighting their little war while Zsasz watches. And every other minute, he will ask one of them to either ice his Cola or pop his popcorn."
You do not understand how much I want this!!!! Headcanon enthusiastically accepted.

Honestly, I never paid much attention to Oswald/Penn until I read this fanfiction (NSFW) about them. Gave me a new appreciation for the ship and Penn as a character.

Rant ahead:

I always hate how they make Oswald this evil caricature at the beginning of the season only to rob him of all power in the most ridiculous way a few episodes later. I've said it since s3, when they started with the Tr*mp-inspired Make Gotham Safe Again, but I've always wanted to see him try to control the press. Or at least establish his own newspaper/TV channel. However, when it counts, Oswald always predictably sucks at the propaganda game.

This season, it's the same. Why does he have his likeness on his cars and boxes of ammunition (5x01) if he doesn't even try to promote himself as the heroic leader Gotham needs? While I've enjoyed uber-baddie Oswald so far, I'd found him a lot more compelling if he'd actually tried to advertise himself to the people. Especially paired with the fact that, in the end, they still choose Jim over him. Like this, he only seems deluded if he seriously wonders why his starving workers would defect to a place like Haven that promises food and safety. /rant

I bet Jim and Ed share one gigantic wardrobe where they store their identical shirts and suits. XD

Re: That Jim/Harv/Os/Ed coalition, I'm still wondering where that leaves people like Babs, Lee, Bruce, and Selina. Or does this war have more fronts than one?

Re: Jim having no alternative other than to lie to the people. I'm just wondering how easily someone could have tried to sabotage Jim by listening in on his radio conversations or taping them or whatever. (I am a long-time soap opera watcher. Someone is always listening!)

"I always hate how they make Oswald this evil caricature at the beginning of the season only to rob him of all power in the most ridiculous way a few episodes later."
It's a kind of stock treatment of villains, I find :\ I think they keep trying to push the whole 'hubris is his downfall' thing with Oswald, and it comes across kinda heavyhanded.

"Like this, he only seems deluded if he seriously wonders why his starving workers would defect to a place like Haven that promises food and safety."
mmm, this. Like, I can believe it if (as it seems) he wants to control people and doesn't care if he does it through fear. But the fact that he also wants to be loved, but seems to be constantly surprised that nobody likes him when he treats them like crap and gives them no incentive other than fear, seems unbelievable to me.

"I bet Jim and Ed share one gigantic wardrobe where they store their identical shirts and suits. XD"
This brings me joy. It would be so methodical. (Harvey carrying Jim's laundry in there :p)

"Re: That Jim/Harv/Os/Ed coalition, I'm still wondering where that leaves people like Babs, Lee, Bruce, and Selina. Or does this war have more fronts than one?"
I'm guessing that's the endgame here. Make us wonder what's going on in that initial teaser, and how they get there. I mean, for all we know, some or all of the others could walk on and join then just after that scene (well, you know what I mean.)

"I'm just wondering how easily someone could have tried to sabotage Jim by listening in on his radio conversations or taping them or whatever."
Very easily, you'd think. Especially just the listening in part. I doubt the refugees were under much scrutiny.

My main problem with their Oswald characterization is that they always make him this big, powerful baddie at the start of the season and then suddenly let him act all ignorant and downright stupid when it suits the plot. My main gripe with s4 was that there's no way he wouldn't have known about Jim "Subtlety is my middle name" Gordon going to visit Falcone in Miami. And, of course, that by 4x09, he suddenly didn't even care enough about the Pax Penguina to continue it despite Sofia's objections.

I also don't understand why he just cannot be nice to *some* people. With Ed, he was able to. Even with Jim, at the beginning! However, both his relationships with Sofia and Martín in s4 seemed deeply flawed to me, and there was no good reason for them to be that way -- other than the fallout with Ed. But they never acknowledge that. Well, at least he treats Ed the Dog well.

Honestly, since I did Poodlepot, I just assume that Ed has at least seven identical green suits, so now he gets to share this big wardrobe with Jim. Makes me wonder if Oswald carries Ed's laundry, too.

I honestly assume that Bruce has his own project going on and that's why he, Selina, Lucius, and Alfred are missing from the scene. Lee might not be good with guns, idk. But Babs? I hope they don't make her turn super evil and go against Jim. But, honestly, I don't think that she'll end up being the Big Bad with tanks and stuff. That seems more like something that could come from the mainland... But I have no idea why and how.

Idk, I'd get character development... like, the more people betray him (even if they're justified in doing so because he's acting like a prick) the more he mistrusts and mistreats people, so the more isolated he gets... but yeah, he does seem to be written very inconsistently.

LOL Oswald maybe delegates to one of his minions to carry Ed's laundry... :p

I wouldn't mind Babs being a super Big Bad so long as they make her really cool. I don't trust them to write it well, though.

"That seems more like something that could come from the mainland... But I have no idea why and how."
Ooh. Yes. Hrm - perhaps some kind of 'sacrifice Gotham to wipe out the criminal element' type deal..? And Jim and co aren't ready to let the city be taken down so easily. Idk. Reading that over, it doesn't seem likely.

I get that take on Oswald. I just don't really understand when exactly he became so dysfunctional in pretty much all his relationships. Hell, for a person he presumably liked, Oswald treated Sofia like crap. Not even going into the Martin issue and how much I despised him for guilting Martin into helping him against Sofia in 4x09.

I also don't really get why or even how he suddenly developed this megalomaniac fantasy of being Gotham's sole leader and protector without even doing anything for the city or her people. Opportunism is one thing, outright delusion another.

Watched the opening of 5x01 again. There seems to be a helicopter coming from the mainland, so they must somehow be involved in the fight. Idk.

I think it would somehow be cool to have Jim fight for the city including all the bad elements that inhabit it. Maybe that's why he has people like Penguin and Riddler joining forces with him? Just not sure how exactly they're planning to win this Us vs. Them fight. Or how Jim will justify his actions to the government. At the start of 5x01, at least, he could still proudly say that the people he protects are not criminals.

I get the feeling that he really broke when his dad died tbh. He seems incapable of trusting anyone at all now.

And, perhaps he just IS delusional?

Hrmmmm... mainland involvement. Yep. Gotham vs the world? (That's kinda romantic, I like it!) "I think it would somehow be cool to have Jim fight for the city including all the bad elements that inhabit it" Yes, romantic just like that :)

I could write an entire essay about why Oswald's characterization doesn't work for me this season. Instead, I'm probably just going to do my own version of s5.

Ngl, I might die a bit if they made Jim a romantic hero. I mean, I love roasting him, but he's still my fave and I'm weak for crap like that. WEAK.

Edited 2019-02-03 04:19 pm (UTC)

Yeah, same. I'm a sucker for the whole 'forlorn hope' thing. That's why the season opening got me SO BAD with the whole 'knockoff Helm's Deep'. "For Gotham!" is never not gonna be affecting.

A new thought re: Ed since I'm currently discussing it with someone else...

I always assumed that Ed's being controlled by Strange/someone Strange is working for. (Mainly due to what Tank said about him being "stiff", "in a daze", and "a man of few words".) But what if we're only seeing Riddler's POV while Ed is the one who started that campaign against Oswald? (My question here is: WHY? And how did he manage to keep it a secret from Riddler for so long?! Then again, did he even try to keep it a secret? In that case, he should've taken care of Tank.)

Pretty sure they won't rehash the Lee/Ed romance, but I could imagine that she might somehow factor into this mystery as she's the only main character still missing from the board.

Or am I assuming too much based on the graffiti? Is the frame job even connected to Ed? But why wouldn't it be? His map in 5x01 showed that he was in/close to several different Gotham territories. What's weird, though, is that there is no indicator he was that close to the Low Boyz territory. I have also no idea who The Undead are supposed to be. (You hit our stronghold and killed our men. Not just us. You hit the Lo Boyz and the Undead, too.) Or did all of that happen between 4x02 and 4x03?

Idek.

Edited 2019-01-20 08:28 am (UTC)

They need to just bring Lee back and explain some stuff. It's fun being in the dark though (for me at least!)

I'm assuming The Undead were the gang of that dude with the skull face mask who Penguin got to check if Jim was bluffing about having ammo last ep..? I mean, judging by his aesthetic. I have no idea where their territory was meant to be though, they're not marked on any map.

Honestly, I love that I have no idea what happens next. And I love to be kept guessing. I'm just afraid that the Lee thing and Ed's mystery will disappoint me. (However, if it only makes a little sense, I swear, I will try to like it!)

Could the other gang we saw in 5x02 be part of The Undead? They're not credited as such on imdb.com, but I'd retrospectively understand better why they were included at the end of 5x02.

Yeah, at this point I'm not expecting much of anything to make sense, I'm just enjoying the spectacle, lol! Clever plotting is a bonus - I'm hoping they pull at least a couple of 'oooh!' moments out of the bag.

The one with the fabulous leader who got gunned down instantly? Yeah, I thought that. Same aesthetic. And if they're from the Dark Zone it'd explain why their territory isn't marked on the map (but not why they're part of the Penguin/Lowboyz/Street Demons coalition)

Re: The Undead. Well, technically, it's not unwise to turn some of the Dark Zone gangs against Oswald. Even if it's just an attempt to take over his territory/factory. The point being, all gangs end up weakened and distracted, and Jeremiah can take their stuff, their turf etc. or maybe even unite them under his leadership.

I think uniting them under his leadership could be a potential endgame...

Again, re: Lee. Today I found this promo pic that shows the main cast. The only two characters missing: Jeremiah and Lee. They are also the only promoted characters we haven't seen yet. :(

Worst nightmare scenario: Ecco!Harley is a red herring. Lee is Harley.



Edited 2019-01-20 07:12 pm (UTC)

Mmmm. That IS weird. Unless they're doing a kind of 'no spoilers' thing with it and to show Lee or Jeremiah in their current 'incarnation' would give too much away of the finale? In which case I'm hoping your nightmare scenario isn't what's in store. My gut tells me that Lee won't be Harley, but I wouldn't put anything past that writing team in the way of wacky curve-balls.

Is it awful that my main take-away from that promo pic is 'Yay Lucius!'?! (Also, Gotham Leather Gloves Store must do a roaring trade..!!)

Yeah, but there are Lee and Jeremiah promo photos. Posted them with all the other ones. I'm even relatively sure there's more than one Jeremiah-centric promo that was released before 5x01 had even aired. And I agree, it would be more than ridiculous to give Ecco all these Harley hints, then suddenly pull this crap with Lee.

Well, then I'll have to introduce another nightmare scenario: Lee as a damsel in distress that Jim has to rescue in order for them to ride into the sunset together. I will punch a wall if that happens.

Appreciating Lucius can never be a bad take. He is woefully underappreciated. And, yeah, gloves... Makes me almost a bit sad that there's no kinky gloves fic.

"Lee as a damsel in distress that Jim has to rescue in order for them to ride into the sunset together. "
I'd rather she was Harley D:

Gently suggest gloves fic to a prolific writer? :p

The thing is, that I specifically yearn for Gobblepot gloves kink and there are already so few people writing them that I'd only feel weird to make such a request. I generally tend to feel weird about requests, especially when there's pretty much nothing I can offer in return. :/

A gif of the explosion, mainly because it looks to me as if something inside the building is exploding. (I realize that the way they set the scene up doesn't necessarily have to correspond with how the attack took place in the story.)



I would be DEAD if it was somehow connected to Bruce's water purification system (assuming it was somehow rigged?!). However, if that were the case, surely, they would have made it a point to mention that they installed one of those on each floor and/or building.

So, after Haven has been destroyed, what are their options:

1.) Going back to Oswald's territory, assuming no one has taken it over yet. Quoting Mr. Penn: Our stores contain 512 loaves of bread, 2,001 liters of filtered water, 400,232 bullets. Oswald might be inclined to do Jim a favor considering that Jim didn't let Babs shoot him. Considering how he treated his factory workers and other staff, though, I would be surprised if Jim blindly trusted him.

Side question 1: Where did Oswald get his own water purification system?
Side question 2: Why did he have it so much earlier than Jim and Bruce?

2.) Exchanging Babs for some food from her territory. I doubt that Jim would do that, considering that it would mean war. However, I'm fairly sure that stopping Babs from killing Oswald could easily mean the same?

3.) We know that the Street Demons and the Low Boyz are done for.

3.1) Taking their territory and building on that. (Unlikely.)
3.2) Likely: Jeremiah/Big Bad X takes control of this part of Gotham... and leaves Jim with what?


Edited 2019-01-20 11:36 am (UTC)

Yeah. It was definitely bombs set inside the building going off. Hence why I thought Jeremiah, as Ecco was able to sneak into the precinct...

I don't think I can cope with the Bruce Guilt if it was connected to the water purification.

1) I mean, perhaps? If Oswald has forgiven Jim for shooting him in the leg now..? It's all very complicated and I can't quite predict Oswald's moods. Maybe he'd now accept 'subjects' grateful for his ~protection and charity~ although I'm guessing they'd be living off gruel...

Didn't he mention bottled water? Someone did at some point because I thought it seemed weird, as I thought that basic water and power was still running in most areas...

2) Yeah, I'm pretty sure Babs will be after Jim now for stopping her killing Penguin (although he did save her the previous week so... someone needs to keep tally of who 'owes' who!!)

I have absolutely no idea how they're gonna go forward with this from now on, except in that initial flashback opener, Jim is coming out of the precinct, and Harvey is coming out of the bar. So at some point, I'm assuming Harvey returns to living in the bar. Perhaps there are so few survivors now that people can go back to their own apartments/smaller boltholes if they're within the Green Zone..? I'm assuming the Green Zone still exists in some capacity, even if Haven has been destroyed...

Jeremiah also has his gang of murder sheeple. Wouldn't be surprised if he managed to smuggle some "suicide bombers" directly into Jim's welcoming, open arms. I only wonder if the timing of the attack was in any way intentional. Was Jim supposed to see the explosion? Why not try to kill him?

I think we're past the stuff with Oswald's leg. They pretty much told us this episode that nobody will kill Jim for Oswald. And unless Jim gives Oswald a good enough reason, I doubt it'll be the first thing on Oswald's mind right now after all his people defected. Which directly leads me to wonder about how many of Oswald's own people died there.

Couldn't find anything re: bottled water in the episode transcripts. If you want to look for yourself, they're here.

Nah, Babs and Jim are square with regard to saving each other. She saved him and Harv from the gangs, he saved her by shooting the Soothsayer dude. Technically, Jim still owes her for the trucks she gave him in 5x02.

Re: The 5x01 opening. Maybe they play it as a classic live-or-die scenario and that's why Harvey's in that bar? One last drink? I just want to headcanon that he wouldn't leave Jim alone at the precinct. Who would carry his laundry otherwise? ;) And, well, Oswald's back in city hall, so things can't have changed too much. Now that I'm thinking about it: Where's Edward the Dog in that sequence?

Yeah, it looks like an inside job, so absolutely perhaps a spy 'refugee' :(
Maybe a message to Jim (because taking everything he'd built from him is worse than killing him, really) or maybe they expected/hoped he'd be inside.

I mean, I'm guessing... most of Oswald's people died there, if they all defected? (He has his dog and Olga left, basically. I mean, they're the best two, but still :p)

Where am I getting bottled water from? My brain, I swear.

If it's 'one last drink' then I'm loving even more that he doesn't drink it - oh my heart! I'm really hung up on that detail, ha.

Hrm, I don't think he'd leave Jim alone anywhere. I automatically assumed that they set it up that way purely for aesthetics - each of them emerging from their 'natural habitat', dressing for battle, type thing? (Also, looks like Penguin has lackeys again. So perhaps they didn't all die in the explosion. PS I am so gleeful seeing him having his makeup done.) LOL again re Dogward, I'm assuming (hoping) he's omitted purely due to ~dramatic battle prep~ aesthetics rather than any deeper meaning...

How many refugees are we even talking about? They said in 5x02 that Haven had 250 apartments. Judging from how overcrowded things seemed in 5x03, we're probably talking about a lot more than 3.000 people. :(

Really curious who's behind that Haven attack. I mean, Jeremiah seems like a good candidate, but, if he's the one behind the Penguin graffiti, I find the timing a bit suspect. Oswald's people defecting to Haven was an unforeseeable development, and if I were Jeremiah, I'd taken care of Oswald first before planning the next big coup. Or maybe Jeremiah has a lot more foot soldiers than we know?

Maybe Harv figured that he'd rather have that drink with Jim after everything is over? :)

I died at the make-up and will headcanon that Oswald put Ed on the softest pillow city hall has to offer before he went outside to his lackeys in order to get his gun.

(Sorry for spamming you with all these comments so quickly again. I just have to get all my stupid hypotheses out now before canon josses them with the next episode. Plus, there'll be a new episode discussion post up this evening and I'm not sure I've already said everything I wanted to say about last week's episode. :()

Damn you, lol. I really tried my hardest not to mention anything re: Bane, and here you already know about him! :D (Please highlight to read the spoiler you obviously already seem to know about!)

Edited 2019-01-26 08:24 pm (UTC)

Oh shit! Ahaha I'm so sorry - I'm editing that comment to hide the spoiler now. That one's been plastered so much everywhere that I actually forgot that it's still technically a spoiler, oops... my bad D:

[EDIT] So for some reason I couldn't edit, so I deleted that comment - it read "Yeah. A lot :(

I'm half expecting them to reveal it's someone totally random. Bring in idk, Firefly or someone (or [xxxx] - we've not seen [xxx] yet).

"Maybe Harv figured that he'd rather have that drink with Jim after everything is over? :)"
Headcanon accepted.

"Oswald put Ed on the softest pillow city hall has to offer before he went outside to his lackeys in order to get his gun."
Protect Dogward at all costs, tbh.

Haha it's totally fine, I'm enjoying it! Cannot WAIT to see how they move forward from that explosion... I hope it's not ALL too angsty..."

Edited 2019-01-26 09:18 pm (UTC)

- Could Bruce's night vision goggles have prevented the Scarecrow raid in 5x01? Bruce had a pair and told Jim that Lucius was working on them for Jim's men. However, instead of using them for himself, maybe give them to the poor guy who guards the gate?

- I need Oswald to go visit the Van Dahl mansion and someone makes a comment about it now being a "vandal mansion" due to whoever's squatting there. I mean, it's not worse than Selina's "Dull Zone" joke. Apologies if there was already a similar joke about it. If so, I don't remember.

- Olga being in city hall probably means that Oswald took all important belongings from the mansion. I approve.

- I rewatched parts of 4x22 and noticed that boats were mentioned in two instances: 1) A doctor informs Bruce that the ambulance with Selina is the last one that's leaving for the boats. 2) People are informed that boats will run all night while the evacuation is still on-going.

Resulting questions:
--> Does that mean there are no more boats left? Even if this were the case, I cannot honestly believe that the government would strictly control what- or whoever crosses the river.

--> If Selina and Alfred didn't make it out of the city, there's no way that the boats ran all night. The evacuation must have failed (for whatever reason). But if it did, why doesn't the government intervene?

Also: Selina was injured at Wayne Manor which is, according to some maps (?), on the mainland. Are there no hospitals on the mainland that would have been closer than a hospital in the city?

- Why did they have Harvey go to Babs in this episode? On the surface, it makes sense: Jim needed support against Oswald. But when she finally showed up, she came alone. Bullshit. It leads me to wonder if the writers somehow needed her to be at Haven at this point in time in order to keep her safe from something we do not yet know about.

- Would honestly be surprised if the person behind the bombing wasn't also behind that chopper attack.

- Rewatching 5x02, I can only double down on my "The radio guy has to be one of the baddies" theory. Reason: He argues that they cannot send supplies until Gotham air space can be declared safe again. The thing is, up until someone shot that chopper down, it had to be considered safe. And they still weren't allowed to fly in supplies: We tried [flying in supplies]. We couldn't even get permission to take off. Zero tolerance. Nothing in or out. (5x01)

Edited 2019-01-24 07:50 pm (UTC)

Well, yeah. But tbf they probably didn't even think that and weren't expecting such a stealthy stealth attack...

Heh, Vandal mansion... although, that also makes me really sad. Poor Oswald's dad :( I swear I thought that was where Ivy was squatting, but I'm probably misremembering stuff.

Re the boats - yes, this is doing my head in, there are SURELY still boats on the river, people could SURELY just literally raft across it on a makeshift raft? It's only a river! Even if it's a wide river, it's going to be traverseable somehow! Hell, as I've said before, you could probably swim it if you were a decent swimmer ffs.
All of it points to the government actively keeping people contained within Gotham, but WHY?

"Are there no hospitals on the mainland that would have been closer than a hospital in the city? "
mmm... to be fair though, maybe not? Like, Gotham is a major city, isn't it? So not TOO much of a stretch to think they'd take her there I guess.

"It leads me to wonder if the writers somehow needed her to be at Haven at this point in time in order to keep her safe from something we do not yet know about."
Probably. But also, she's shown as turning up solo for dangerous stuff repeatedly. Which, yes, is stupid and unbelievable, but at least consistent...?

Yes to radio guy being a baddie. It's some kind of government conspiracy, right? It has to be. They're trying to contain something in Gotham?

Pretty sure the house wasn't supposed to be Van Dahl mansion. Unless you mean she was squatting there some other time?

Re: The radio guy and a potential conspiracy. I speculated about this in a lengthy comment in the discussion post for the next episode here.

I have no idea where I even got the idea from, except that I thought I recognised it as somewhere she was staying at one point... you may have noticed I don't have the greatest memory though!