I've not clicked on the cut because I'm avoiding spoilers but I am CLAWING THE WALLS desperate to see it, haha!

Haha, same. I will watch it with a good cup of tea right when I get home!

I'll also try to make something with which users can indicate how much they liked an episode. Back in my soap days, I always made small, animated versions of particular characters, so people could rate an episode 10 out of 10 "Axels", for example.

OK, I have watched it, I am about to do a new reply to this post with my thoughts :D

Watched it and read your comment. Will try to compose a reply. I have mixed feelings about the ep, but I liked pretty much everything you also liked!

I am basically HIGH right now from how good that was. I mean like, I have not anticipated and then enjoyed a fandom thing so much in FOREVER. Like, literally since three seasons ago with Supernatural.

It wasn't perfect - there were a fair few plotholes and of course wtaf with Tabby :( but overall I just loved it. (Other wtf - Me: "Guys. Please fly that chopper a bit higher... aaand there we go." AS IF Penguin could best Tabby, or Scarecrow could out-fight Jim. AS IF the mainland government would just abandon the city, I mean, honestly, it's not even that cut off, that river is probably swimmable if you're a strong swimmer? Everything is rationed and finite but Jim's just gonna waste power on the proto-bat-symbol every night, yup. It's kinda a dumb set-up but idec I'm so into it.)

Stuff I loved: Oh my GOD that opening scene was practically pornographic in it's forlorn hope-ness! And I was NOT expecting to see them all joining forces and heck yeah I want the explanation of how that came about. It was totally rip-off Helm's Deep (in fact, there were so many bits in that ep that reminded me of other stuff) but again idec it was awesome. I'm SO INTO Penguin's aesthetic in this ep. I am also weirdly delighted that Foxy and Alfred both look so understandably dishevelled and yet Jim is still POLISHED. Harv in the intro: /leaves his shot undrunk/ Me: I'm so proud of you bb (yes, I said it out loud). I mean, honestly, that intro was just /sexy/. Also his hair is looking excellent. (Also, Barbara's hair is looking excellent). I'm liking Jim a lot more now again, even though he's still dumb af and has zero tactics, I kinda like his borderline suicidal throwing himself heroically headlong into danger behaviour (with Harvey right behind him, obviously.)
I'm a real sucker for the whole 'Escape from New York' type scenario at the best of times so this is really doing it for me. I'm sure there's other stuff I adored but that's my initial brain-dump.

I feel mixed about it. But that's also because the beginning really hammered home to me that this season will be it. And then no more Gotham. Made me a bit sad among all the eyegasm. Also, the ladies were missing in that scene. I hope there's a good, non-bullshit reason for it. (Ngl, I'd die a bit if Jim and Co. were really facing off against those missing ladies at the end. Not that I really believe it. They're probably somewhere together with Bruce or whatever.)

Haha, I think I wouldn't recognize even totally obvious references to other stuff. My visual memory is absolutely terrible. The only reference I ever got was one to Austin Powers (but that wasn't Gotham, obviously). That said, if you ever feel to elaborate on that visual stuff, I'd be happy to hear more!

I love your point about Jim being so polished. Honestly, I thought the entire episode that I'd love to see him wolf down his ration because it would be such a stark contrast to his otherwise perfect looks.

Agreed re: liking Jim more. However, I would've liked him even better if he shot Oswald's healthy leg. That would have been an A+ bastard move.

Cannot say more rn. Currently mixed feelings. Not sure if it's really about the episode or if I'm just secretly sad that the show is ending. *long sigh*

Yeah. Same. I came to it so late that I guess I don't have the same level of investment maybe as those who've followed it in real time throughout, but I'm also gutted that I've missed out on all that... But as I think I've said before, I'm also weirdly relieved in a way to be going 'it's the last season and I'm still loving it' because it's way better to be left wanting more than to see something drag on and die and I end up hating it (in my opinion, at least).

I noticed the absence of any women in that scene too. Although. I am actually wondering if it's gonna be Babs leading the opposition now.

Oh idk if there were any intentional references, just stuff that reminded me of stuff. Like, the opening - you can't really do "For Gotham!" and not have people watching respond "For Frodo!" Plus the bit where the kid staggered in from across the territory and gasped his message and collapsed gave me such huge 'Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom' flashbacks. Plus, so much 'Escape from New York' (or perhaps 'Escape from LA' is more accurate, given the level of silliness!) I'm so here for allll of it, though.

"I'd love to see him wolf down his ration because it would be such a stark contrast to his otherwise perfect looks."
Me tooooo. If we ever see him being human it's gonna be so satisfying!

"However, I would've liked him even better if he shot Oswald's healthy leg."
HAHA OMG you are ice cold :p

I think I'm forcing myself into denial about it ending tbh. I just wanna enjoy what we got left and then rewatch the heck outta it for as long as it still delights me :)

I guess it's mainly the fact that I have no backup show ready. I do watch a lot of crap, but I rarely get invested enough to actually like the cast, read fanfic, seek out other fans, and discuss stuff. That doesn't happen with 95% of my shows. Then again, I guess, it'll always depend on the cockroaches remaining in the fandom once everything's over. I am a cockroach by nature, so I'll stay if there's a good reason for me to do so.

And, well, I rarely end up hating stuff because I usually just quit when I've lost interest. I am not a terribly patient member of the audience. For example, I quit House shortly after s5 begun just because I wasn't feeling it anymore and now I'm watching later seasons and I still like it for what it is.

I just wonder... If Babs is a part of the opposition, why would Jim name his daughter after her? (I just somehow assume that they'll make Babs Gordon canon.) Plus, it doesn't explain Lee's absence. And I don't believe that they'd make Lee "evil" again after that s4!fuckery. Unless she's with Bruce.

I only watched the first two LotR movies once. The only thing I can remember that I had a big crush on pretty much half of the cast. Maybe I should watch those movies you mentioned, just to get into the right mood. ;)

Just for once, I want to see somebody eat who isn't Oswald! Almost nobody eats on this show! (No wonder, though, the food looks terrible.)

If I'd write these characters, they'd be uber assholes for sure. For example, Oswald would have never left city hall just for one measly chopper. It generally strikes me as weird that, while Penn is back, Oswald doesn't seem to have an enforcer who handles the day-to-day business while he's sitting in his ivory tower together with his dog. (Unless Tabitha was exaggerating when she talked about Oswald never leaving "his citadel".)

Honestly, I'm also planning to rewatch it as soon as the DVD box comes out. But I'm also a terrible rewatcher. Have never in my life managed to completely rewatch something. Not even Battlestar Galactica, which I truly enjoyed on my first watch.

Ah, me either right now. But I have a few shows that are still running and I lowkey enjoy (notably The Walking Dead) and a few lined up I wanna watch. But I hear you on liking stuff enough to actually want to discuss it.

I have noooo idea re Barbara Gordon. I'm not that familiar (beyond general pop cultural knowledge) with DC universe, so I can't really speculate. Perhaps she's gonna part of the 'good' side in the end but they kept her out of the initial scene to keep people guessing?

Haha yeah - LOTR and the Hobbit movies are both full of pretty characters!

They have Harvey eating awful junk food quite a lot? And I'm sure I've seen Butch eating. And Zsasz... why the hell is THIS apparently sticking in my mind?! lol. Agreed though, Jim lives off air and righteousness :p

OMG BSG, I love BSG! My first main actor crush is in that (Romo). I mean, if you ever rewatch it and want a watch buddy to chat shit with, hit me up!

I think the only show I've been watching a while and will continue to watch is HTGAWM. But I didn't really like the new season so far, and if that doesn't change, I might quit it again. I tried watching TWD a few years back when I was in a zombie mood. Liked In The Flesh a lot more and when that got cancelled, I vowed to never touch TWD again out of spite, lol.

Idk, I just assume they'll give Jim a partner and/or a family. It's what he's always secretly wanted (or, at least, what he thought he wanted), so unless he suddenly makes peace with things as they are, TPTB should give him something other than the job to fulfill him. I think a good partner might do that. *looks pointedly in Harvey's general direction*

Oh, when I was talking about food, I was mainly talking about the fourth season. It's the only thing I watched fairly recently with the exception of a few s1 episodes. But I remember there being a few food scenes with Alfred and Bruce. A question, out of curiosity: If you remember, what did Zsasz eat? And Jim should eat more! He looked so tiny in that one scene where he walks next to Sofia in 4x08. I'm definitely pro-chub anyone!

Haha, I think the farthest I've come with my BSG rewatch was "Black Market". I might take you up on that chat offer. Just to warn you, though, I hate Lee with a vengeance. Did you crush on your fave in BSG or did you watch BSG for him?

Edited 2019-01-06 08:45 pm (UTC)

I've never seen that (to the point I had to google the acronym!) I think I saw In the Flesh too? But TWD I'm really liking... not sure you'd get on with it given that you've said you don't carry on watching if stuff gets rubbish, because season 7 is a total disaster, and 8 is patchy, but I watched through them and now it's gone good again (although it IS total soap opera, I admit!)

Tbh I will only be delighted by Jim getting a partner within the span of this season if that partner actually is Harvey :p

Ah, right, fourth season. They all merge into one in my head tbh. Selina eats cake too, I'm pretty sure. And off the top of my head, if Zsasz didn't actually eat pizza he certainly made overtures to pizza (now I'm thinking, I'm recalling that Tabby and Selina had pizza and he wanted some and they said no..? Or maybe he wanted it in a different scene... anyway... Zsasz always seems to be wanting food in my head!) You're right that Jim never seems to eat though. Except dinner dates in S1?

I'm fine with you hating Lee Adama, I have no real feelings for him either way. I watched BSG for him but then loved it independent of him. (I've watched a whole heap of stuff for him and if it's a TV show he's in more than one ep of, I'll watch the whole thing. I've discovered some decent stuff that way. Leverage is another fave, but I've not managed to watch the entire thing yet.)

HTGAWM is a murder soap opera. What makes it compelling (imo): 1. Usually two main mysteries per season. 2. Probably one of the most diverse shows I've ever watched including (presumably) bi and gay POC. 3. Viola Davis just kills it. Would I recommend it? Idek. Only to people who enjoy soapy shows with ridiculous twists.

Haha. Well, maybe Jim remains single. But I doubt it...

I think I also got turned off re: TWD because they seemed to kill off a lot of important characters and I really despise it when my faves get killed/written out. I mean, at first, I was definitely curious because that dude who kissed Alan Rickman in Dark Harbor is in it... And Mishonne and Carol really look like total badasses... But I don't want my faves to be killed in cruel shock twists and this show seems to rely on that. :/

I do remember the pizza in 4x01, but I don't remember seeing an actual slice (I think!). Now I'm headcanoning that Zsasz gets the most random munchies. And, yes, there definitely was Bruce's birthday cake. And Alfred and some bread. Not to mention the food that was involved in the Pyg plot. I quite liked it when he knelt in front of Jim and pointed a sausage at him in 4x06. ;)

Don't even remember why I watched BSG. I think someone said that it was similar to Mass Effect? Maybe. I know Leverage only from that one Tumblr person I follow. People talk about a certain OT3 as if it were canon, but I'm not sure if it's true.

I'll have a look if it's on Netflix - sounds good to me, but I've got a pretty long to-watch list at the moment, so I might note it for future.

Ugh, the compulsion to pair everyone off (heterosexually).

Yeah, TWD does kill a LOT of characters. It doesn't bother me too much now I'm into it, because it's really true that nobody is safe, so idk... it feels less like they're singling out 'disposable' (read: the ones who aren't straight white dudes) characters. But yeah, a lot of my faves have been fridged already. Also, there's no coming back in TWD (unless they're like, walkers, obviously, but that's different) and I kinda like that. It gives deaths more gravitas. Without wanting to spoiler, Michonne and Carol are TOTAL badasses and two of my faves and they're not dead yet, so. Three of my longtime faves are still going strong, so there's longevity for some characters at least.

"Now I'm headcanoning that Zsasz gets the most random munchies."
Honestly I'm headcanoning that Zsasz has junk food as a priority. He always seems so gleeful at the prospect.

Haha who can forget the sausage wiggling!

"People talk about a certain OT3 as if it were canon, but I'm not sure if it's true."
Hardison/Parker/Elliot? It's not true (at least not up to the point I've watched, and I seriously doubt it'll be canon) but the characters are really awesome and adorable and I'm thinking that Hardison/Parker might actually become canon eventually. I really need to get back onto watching it.

Well, if you ever get to it, please tell me if you love or hate it. And I totally get the long to-watch list, so no hurry. ;)

Out of curiosity: Who were your dead TWD faves?

New headcanon: Zsasz's headquarter is an abandoned McDonald's, lol.

Shall do!

OK, massive spoilers (or not: tbh pretty much everyone dies). Dale and Hershel (I mean, predictably, I like the foxy old dudes). Beth. Glenn. Jesus. Shiva. I mean, if I'm totally honest, my absolute favourites are still alive and two of them have been around since S1.

I fully accept that headcanon!

My two laugh-out-loud moments:

• The chopper went down.
• Jim shot Oswald.

• Jim looking hot. There was one nice hair shot I noticed. Cheers! I have forgiven him (almost) all of his s4 sins.

• Oswald. His glasses are literally to die for. Damn! But, wtf, was that his underwear in that scene where they removed the bullet?! If so, I need at least one fic featuring it stat. What a glorious revelation!

• Babs looked SO GOOD. Almost reminded of a female Penguin. I'm a fan and I need her to share at least (!) one scene with Lee in the future... because... meow.

• I'm into the Ed mystery, even though, after how s4 went, I'm fairly sure it won't pay off.

• Lucius looked SO good. But, please, I need someone to take away his tie.

• I'm glad Harper still exists! And Penn! (I REALLY want to know why Oswald took him back.)

• I don't particularly care that Jim has allies across the river. But maybe it's an interesting little mystery.

• The Scarecrow stuff. Who cares about Scarecrow? (Sorry. Tell me more about the Zsasz territory instead.)

• I thought it was bullshit that they had the chopper land in the Low Boyz territory only for them to be gunned down within mere seconds. Also, the fact that not more people followed the chopper.

• I'm mildly amused that Firefly's and Freeze's territories are next to each other.

• Oswald was ridiculously evil in this one and I LOVED it! (With the exception of Tabby's death.) Also, who's a good dog daddy? Oswald is!

• Ed looked like some kind of indie/emo musician with that awful wig. I'm really not sure if I liked it or not. But I think I'd appreciate longer hair on him. Just not like that.

• Bruce: "Because it reminds people that even in darkness, there is light." Me: *groans* Shoot me.

• Lucius has to do everything around there. Poor guy.

• The ableist "I wanna die!11" spiel with Selina. Just give me Lee as "The Witch", maybe that will improve this crap. I also already hate the prospect of Bruce blaming himself for this. Please get this over with by the third episode at the latest. (Sorry, I've already seen too many characters in wheelchairs trying to commit suicide and I am fucking over the "there is no life with a disability" mentality. FUCK OFFFF!)

• Tabby's death (if she's dead). That honestly held no entertainment value for me and I'd rather have seen her go somewhere off-screen than die this gracelessly on the show. I also really hate that they let Babs choose her in s4 without ever giving the pairing its due.

• Lee didn't appear. Sad face. :( I'm curious where she is and what she's doing.

Edited to add: The more I think about it, the more I want to see Ivy. Maybe she'd be able to save the Selina plot. I was also thinking that she could be "The Witch". However, wouldn't immediately jump to that conclusion because, while s4!Lee doesn't exactly strike me as "The Witch" material, we don't really know what's happened to her after the regeneration. Who knows, maybe she has developed powers?

Edited 2019-01-05 03:53 pm (UTC)

"Jim looking hot. There was one nice hair shot I noticed."
Agreed, except his flasher mac is every bit as gross as it looked in the promo pics and he needs to lose it immediately. I'm thinking his hair was a bit longer? Almost as if he can't get his two weekly scheduled trims now he's living in Mad Max-verse, but he's determined to style that shit into submission anyway ;)
Also can I say that re Harv's hair, Donal Logue's irl hair evidently grows like weeds and I have emotions.

Seconding Oswald's glasses. His undies were sort of hilarious. I love how every guy in this show wears voluminous cotton shorts and a tshirt, like nobody in real life ever.

I was kinda meh over the Ed mystery. He's not my favourite anyway, but it seemed to drag a bit with no clues to keep the audience hooked... I'll be interested to see where they're going with it. His hair IS awful though.

Harper is the total unsung hero of Gotham and I love how she's literally like the third to Jim and Harv now. I really like her. Her and Lucius, the real heroes of the GCPD.

"Tell me more about the Zsasz territory instead."
HALLELUJAH AMEN.

"I'm mildly amused that Firefly's and Freeze's territories are next to each other."
That also made me lol, it's the right kind of comic-booky.

Your points about Selina - I'd not really clocked that before and ugh god you are so right re the ableism. (It's also made me think that they pulled exactly the same kind of storyline in Supernatural one time and I've never looked at it that way before and yeah :\)

"I also already hate the prospect of Bruce blaming himself for this."
Yup. The only way they could make that storyline worse is if they make it a vehicle for ManAngst.

I'm hoping Tabby isn't forever dead, but I kinda suspect she is. And that sucks. Also, it was STUPID how she died - no way would she go out like that.

I actually said "Where's Ivy?" during my watch of it. And now you point it out, her being The Witch would make sense and be pretty satisfying. Also, would be a good thing if she helps Selina, given their history and all.

Jim's outfit is terrible. Maybe they choose it so he'll look even better in that opening. If you want to compare his hair, here are some s4 hair shots. Must admit I can't really see a change in hair length, but if you want me to make 5x01 hair gifs just so we can be completely sure, then I will of course happily provide them.

I am a dirty sinner and didn't much look at Harvey's hair during my first watch, to be honest. I was too caught up in my amazement that they finally managed to style Oswald's hair in a way that I like. At any rate, I'm happy for you that Harv didn't find a razor or scissors while the show was gone. ;)

The thing is... Oswald's underwear appears to be a one-piece with buttons. He also wears a tight black shirt/shorts combo underneath. I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS AND EMOTIONS ABOUT IT. At any rate, I love his hideous underwear and I'm looking forward to reading some fic featuring it. (Lbr, though, I'm probably the only person immensely delighted by this revelation. I mean.. all those buttons! YEsssss. No wonder he doesn't date.)

Re: Ed. He's one of the rare cases where I don't particularly care about the character, but the actor somehow makes it worth it. That said, I do agree that his scenes seemed a bit pointless without actual hints for the audience. Especially since I'm far more curious what exactly happened after his reanimation. Surely, Oswald wouldn't have simply let him go or discard him? And where's Lee? If I were Oswald, I'd hold her hostage and use her as a bargaining chip against Jim. Or, if nothing else, she's a goddamn doctor.

Harper always looks so good! I love her outfits. Re: Lucius. Didn't he have a family -- or at least a wife? It's really odd that practically no one has loved ones in other Gotham territories or across the river. I mean, at least it would add a sympathetic note.

Maybe we should be grateful that the show still remembers who Zsasz is. ;) They'll get points from me if he sits on a throne of bones while sipping his milkshake with Headhunter in the same room.

Re: Selina. I've just seen that same storyline so many times. And, hey, I'm not judging anyone for wanting to die after receiving a devastating diagnosis. That's okay in my books. I just hated that she a) uttered her wish to die out loud and then b) somehow stupidly got the opportunity to kill herself in the same episode. That's just a fucking negligent scenario. Would have liked it a lot better if she'd kept her wish to die quiet and/or managed to get the scalpel from somewhere else. At least that would have given her a bit more agency. Like this, all of her suffering is centered around Bruce's own pain. His guilt. The threat of losing her. Saving the girl he ~loves, boohoo. That's why I'd lliked it if they had introduced Ivy later on, freely coming into Selina's hospital room to help her just like she did before in s3.

Yeah, Tabby's death is really stupid. The least they could do is to include Babs searching for the Lazarus pits in an attempt to revive her. Or seeking out Strange. Because I will scream if TPTB can whoop-dee-doo revive both Ed and Lee, but Tabitha suddenly presents a problem. It's not as if Babs couldn't trade both food and ammunition for Strange's work.

Gotta admit, the main reason why I don't believe Ivy's back, is that a) she doesn't have a territory on the map, b) my assumption that they will only bring back guest stars if they intend to use them (and her lack of a territory doesn't seem like it, unless she's meant to be a surprise), c) she's Selina's friend and, as such, she could easily bring more conflict into the already strained Bruce/Selina relationship. Which would, of course, be interesting, but I honestly don't expect these writers to give much of a fuck about Selina's pain and/or the importance of female friendships.

They did seem to be playing on contrasts in that opener, hey. Everyone all dressed up fine for the final battle, oh my heart.

OH, my. Those gifs. Yeah... I am honestly usually unmoved by short hair but it's so thick I kinda wanna tug it (that sounds absolutely as terrible as it should haha!) I mean, I think that maybe you should make 5x1 gifs, for science, yknow?

It's OK, I was keeping an eye on Harvey's hair enough for everyone ;) But yeah, Oswald's does look good. His style is generally great in S5 so far.

"one-piece with buttons. He also wears a tight black shirt/shorts combo underneath."
OK... I didn't actually pick up on that, I just noticed baggy white stuff. I will have to pay attention when I rewatch because that sounds frankly bizarre and I'm also intrigued now.

I actually can't recall anything that happened with Lee and Ed after they stabbed each other so I'm at a loss (my memory is really terrible, I should maybe be worried..!)

Can't remember Lucius ever mentioning a family? But yeah, fair point - nobody does seem to have families. A lot of single people there. It IS odd.

"Maybe we should be grateful that the show still remembers who Zsasz is. ;) They'll get points from me if he sits on a throne of bones while sipping his milkshake with Headhunter in the same room."
This would make MY LIFE. Zsasz and Headhunter, BFFs: headcanon.

"And, hey, I'm not judging anyone for wanting to die after receiving a devastating diagnosis."
Tbh I think that's why I've not questioned it before, because that doesn't seem unrealistic to me (especially in a character whose entire existence is based around being very physically active, maybe?) but now you mentioned it, it's occurred to me how totally pervasive that storyline is, and yeah, not ideal.

I'm thinking Tabby is forever dead, and yeah, it's truly dumb and double standards, but in terms of 'winding down' I'm guessing they're gonna sacrifice any 'surplus' characters who don't have to canonically survive into 'Batman' timeline? And I'm guessing she's dispensible :( Saying that though, wasn't Grundy meant to be a Batman villain, and they still offed him? So I'm lowkey worried about the safety of my faves (and let's be real, by 'faves' I mean Harvey).

I hope they're not that shitty re Ivy. I guess I'm a bit rose tinted glasses about Gotham because I'm still enjoying it and it's treated female characters a lot better than a lot of shows I like. I'm assuming Ivy is just holed up somewhere, not particularly caring about territory. It'll be a waste (not to mention a loose end) if they don't bring her back. I'll be happy if Selina is 'cured' by a woman tbh, rather than Bruce somehow doing it.

I will try to make the Jim gifs tomorrow (or at least within the next few days!). Maybe I'll include some other hair gifs if I feel like it. And, yeah, I totally get that thing re: Jim's hair. Make that boy scout a little dirty! Harvey really should, especially in s5. :3

I will probably talk about Oswald's underwear for weeks now. It's the single most fascinating reveal of 5x01 for me. From what I've seen, it should be similar to that model. God, I need fanfic and/or meta to make sense of this.

Oswald found Ed and Lee in the Narrows and got Strange to reanimate both of them. That's all I remember, haha.

Re: Lucius's family. I just recall a moment in which I thought to myself, "Shit, Lucius has a canon family, so I can't ship him with Alfred". But maybe I misunderstood something. I headcanon that Harper has a wife at home, so that's where all my thoughts re: people's families come from. If everybody else there is married to the job, at least she should be normal! Or better not. They'll just kill her and/or her wife.

If they reintroduce Zsasz, I really want to see Headhunter. I was already vaguely disappointed that they gave us random!Scarecrow without Jervis.

Idk, if they'd made it more about Selina, I could have swallowed it... probably. But I already hated the beginning in which her doctor's talking to Alfred and Bruce... not her. The most meaningful thing she gets to say is that she wants to die and that it was Bruce's friendship that did her in. That's weak. The nurse didn't even tell her about "The Witch", just Bruce. Twice. WTF. They shut her out of decisions about her own body/health. Why wouldn't anyone tell the suicidal patient that there is hope? That would have been a way better way to close the episode with, imo. That is, unless they plan to have Selina fight Bruce's decision to see "The Witch" in 5x02 or whatever.

Agreed re: Tabby probably being seen as "dispensible". But I'd still prefer her to walk away instead of dying an unworthy death. Jessica Lucas deserved better. I'm already spoiled re: two people who will survive for sure, but I wouldn't count on every single one of my faves making it. I'll be really mad if they kill Babs, Lee or Harvey. Then again, Harv will at least live until the final confrontation.

Haha, I think Gotham is pretty bad re: female characters. At least compared to the shows I've watched in the past. I've already speculated with someone on Tumblr that Ivy might be the reason why Babs has food. However, if that were the case, I have no idea how she could also be "The Witch".

Edited 2019-01-06 08:23 pm (UTC)

I rewatched S4 finale this week and I'm due a rewatch of 5x1 tomorrow night with a friend, so I will keep my eyes peeled for Ossie's undercrackers!

OK so. In the S4 finale, Strange was all 'ooooh, I am fiendish, what SHALL I do with you two lovely corpses' to Ed and Lee, so I'm hoping that he actually, y'know, did some weird shit to them (not like that!) so they'll have some interesting powers or whatever maybe. I'd totally forgotten that bit, but tbf it is a scene that lasts all of five seconds, so maybe I blinked and missed it the first two watches :p Now I'm thinking that Lee is absolutely the Witch.

I mean, I'd like everyone to have happy family ties, but yeah, you're right that having people care about you is just enticing the writers to do you wrong, so yep, probably best that they're all lonely islands :\

"If they reintroduce Zsasz, I really want to see Headhunter."
I want a scene of them getting milkshake together, totally unrelated to anything else in the episode tbh.

Yeah, where IS Jervis? I didn't notice he was missing, because he annoys me.

Yeah, the Selina thing with doctors talking about her rather than to her was handled really horribly, but actually depressingly accurately, probably.

"But I'd still prefer her to walk away instead of dying an unworthy death."
Mmmmm, NEVER watch Supernatural. I'm probably desensitised to this bullshit because nobody EVER just gets written out, they HAVE to die. Like, in TV world, there is no such thing as 'I just had enough of this crap and left, like people do in real life.'

"Then again, Harv will at least live until the final confrontation."
OK yes, this is a very good point that I had not previously recognised. (I swear, if they kill him, I will... I'm not sure what I'll do, but I will be very fucking cross indeed. I don't need to lose another one.)

What shows so you think have the best female characters?

Mmm, Ivy would be pretty in demand re food production, potentially. (She eats vegetables, right? Like, how does that work?) I'm just curious to know where she's at. It's cool they've still got several key characters in the wind - I hope they do something good with them.

Just finished my 5x01 a rewatch. :))

I really want Lee back ASAP, so I hope she's The Witch. Plus, it might mean that she won't immediately join forces with Jim. That'd be nice.

Re: Jervis. He and Jonathan are usually this canon duo, so I'd just expect them to keep hanging together. I'd also like to know how things are currently run at Arkham or Blackgate.

Re: Your female characters question... Always depends on what kind of female characters you like. If you want better recs, maybe tell me which female characters you already liked? Maybe I know similar ones.

I thought that Eve in Killing Eve was exciting because you rarely see women characterized like that in a thriller setting. Also, a VERY queer show. Fave new show of 2018. Letty in Good Behavior is also an interesting female protagonist, even though I'm not sure I'd necessarily recommend it for its female representation. But she's a well-acted, complex, "damaged" protagonist and it was my favorite new show of 2017. I liked Harlots. Interesting mother-daughter relationships and just generally the female friendships. It's not perfect, but lovely costumes on lovely people and all that. Also kudos for period drama cast that's not all-white. Judging from what I've seen from The Expanse, I like its female characters. Mainly reccing that one because it's sci-fi.

That said, there are many female-fronted cult shows I've never had the chance/time/inclination to watch.

Just a few days ago, I googled what Ivy eats. Salad. So no idea how she'd get Babs all that meat...

Edited 2019-01-10 07:10 pm (UTC)

"I'd also like to know how things are currently run at Arkham or Blackgate."
I was absolutely thinking the same. I'm assuming they would have been evacuated along with hospitals etc, but knowing Gotham it's probably gonna be a 'mob rule' situation for both, or that all the inmates from both have now escaped.

Re which female characters I already like... OK, so I like most of the ones in Battlestar (I love Starbuck). I've liked what I've seen of Wynnona Earp. I liked Sleepy Hollow. I freaking loved Ghost Wars but they cancelled after one season. I bloody adored Liz and Iris in AHS Hotel (we've discussed this!) I love Myrtle Snow in AHS. I actually think I tend to like older women, as young ones tend to be more idk... weirdly characterised as 'spunky but vulnerable' if you get my meaning? Generally, anyone who Kathy Bates plays tends to be amazing. Oooh I loved Olivia in Hemlock Grove too.

I REALLY want to see Killing Eve, I've heard so much good stuff about that. I really liked The Killing. Not seen (or even heard of) those ones you've recc'd. I was recc'd Miss Fisher's and started watching it and it was OK but I found it a bit... idk... something about it didn't sit right with me. I've been recc'd The Expanse too actually, I need to start watching that. Thanks for these recommendations!

Mmmm. Yeah, that article is asking all the same questions I had, so I'll take it as an answer that she eats plants but feels guilty about it (she should really ask Jim how he gets by never eating :P)

Mmm. Re: female badasses. I think Olivia in Fringe is one. Orphan Black is full of them. Have you seen Nikita? I thought that was pretty fun (which doesn't necessarily mean it was great, but, still, fun). That said, not sure those really match the Starbuck type.

If you want to get into more female-led stuff, I can only recommend following wlw-related sites. They're usually all over the good shit.

I greatly recommend Killing Eve. I thought it was a pure joy to watch.

Was recced Miss Fisher's as well, but it's not terribly high on my list of things to watch. Have only heard good things about it, though.

Yeah, maybe Ivy can learn something from our never-eating Jim. Maybe he needs his impeccable hair for that???

I'll put Orphan Black on the watch list, I think that's on Netflix. I've not seen Nikita, nope. I really do need to prioritise watching Killing Eve.

Post-rewatch notes:

The only female minor characters with speaking parts are the nurses -- who appear to be all-female during the episode -- and Jim's mysterious ally across the river. All other minor characters with a speaking part seem to be male: DOD guy Jim is talking to at the beginning (voice), the doctor, the starving refugee, the two police offers at the gate, Scarecrow's follower who is attacked by Bruce (voice), the chopper pilot (voice), the Low Boyz guy, the man with the little boy at the end.

Questions:

- Where does Babs get the food?

- Why do not more female refugees over at Jim's consider going to Babs (who has food!)? Especially the old women.

- How does Babs's business even operate? Information trading alone cannot bring in all that food. It's a bit baffling that Jim doesn't have more insights into Babs's business model since he can report quite a bit about Oswald.

- Why didn't Oswald leave city hall all this time? Is that the reason he got Ed?

- Does Jim even eat? He doesn't know they're already on half-rations.

- Why the hell is flying that chopper in a one-time solution (according to Jim)? Who the fuck cares about what the government thinks?

- Who shot the chopper down? And if it wasn't Tabby -- which I don't think, tbh! -- why didn't they try to come for it? If it was intended to be a diversion, it would've made a lot more sense if they had at least attempted to raid the GCPD territory while they knew that Jim was busy elsewhere. But like that? What was the purpose of the attack? (The RPG makes me think it was Zsasz.)

- What did Bruce even do during that chopper maneuver? It seemed a little weird that his involvement there was followed up by Jim telling him that he's earned his place. Idk. (One twist I would welcome: Bruce tells Selina about Tabitha's death and supports her during her grief.)

Other Thoughts:

- The "men buying windows of time" thing almost makes it sound as if Babs is a pimp.

- It was the biggest bullshit that Babs simply ran into that Oswald-Jim confrontation.

- For now, I believe that at least one of those radio voices is fake and/or a trap. It seems like the easiest way to explain later on why the government didn't intervene. Of course, they wouldn't if everyone was tricked by false communications.

- Mr. Penn wasn't with Oswald when he got ready, so that means he's either switched sides or he is dead.


Edited 2019-01-10 10:43 pm (UTC)

I've still only seen this ep once... I hope to remedy that this weekend.

"- Where does Babs get the food?"
This is another dumb plot hole that I'm happily glossing over in my mind. It's almost like a video game the way they've set it up - territory neatly chopped into bits, each bit has it's 'thing': one has food, one has ammo. It seems pretty clumsily written to me, but as I said - my disbelief is SO suspended cos I'm just going along with the daft ride lol. I mean, I can see her having alcohol monopoly mayyyybe as she's a club owner - they could have stocks/warehouses/a supply chain still..? But food, I'm not so sure why she'd have it. Warehouse district? I'm reaching now.

"- Why do not more female refugees over at Jim's consider going to Babs (who has food!)? Especially the old women."
Because Jim Gordon is the Great White Saviour? :p But yeah, another big plot hole. Maybe Babs turns away any woman who isn't Sirens Hot (or you'd think so, judging from the occupants of the club at any time!)

"- Why didn't Oswald leave city hall all this time? Is that the reason he got Ed?"
Is he scared to go out? I mean, if he's got a cushy number holed up in his lair, I can actually believe he might not venture out...

"- Does Jim even eat? He doesn't know they're already on half-rations."
No. He literally doesn't. He survives on quixotic stoicism and Harvey's love.

"- Who shot the chopper down? And if it wasn't Tabby -- which I don't think, tbh! -- why didn't they try to come for it? If it was intended to be a diversion, it would've made a lot more sense if they had at least attempted to raid the GCPD territory while they knew that Jim was busy elsewhere. But like that? What was the purpose of the attack? (The RPG makes me think it was Zsasz.)"
I hope it was Zsasz. I hope they at the very least come back to that plot point.

"(One twist I would welcome: Bruce tells Selina about Tabitha's death and supports her during her grief.)"
Amen.

"- The "men buying windows of time" thing almost makes it sound as if Babs is a pimp."
Mmmmm it does. But I don't think that fits with Babs's deal at all. I think it's literally just, these male scum can pay to breathe the same air as us for a few minutes.

"- For now, I believe that at least one of those radio voices is fake and/or a trap. It seems like the easiest way to explain later on why the government didn't intervene. Of course, they wouldn't if everyone was tricked by false communications."
That is... actually the most intelligent reasoning I've seen. It still doesn't really answer HOW the mainland could desert them. I think that plot hole is just gonna remain holey.

I *really* want to know where she gets her food, and I don't mind a Soylent Green twist. I mean, I get what you're saying here, and you're probably right that it's just a part of their setup and to get things going. Another indicator that it's that: The fact that Oswald and Babs suddenly start trading when the episode's narrative kicks off. All these weeks before things were apparently fine?!

The way Babs talked about protecting the women who come to them (= "every day, looking for safety", 5x01), makes me want to believe she wouldn't just merely take "the hot ones" and use them as bait for the men.

I have a theory re: Oswald not leaving city hall. But that includes some vaguely spoilery stuff.

Hm. If I'm right re: the radio voice being fake, maybe the RPG was intended to keep the "no supplies for you" argument going because, evidently, the Gotham air space is too unsafe for that? It's doubly suspicious because they didn't even come for the price. Unless, maybe, it was Jeremiah and that's why Ecco (?) suddenly showed up looking at that map.

"All these weeks before things were apparently fine?!"
I mean, perhaps there were bits of stuff in each territory for a while, then they ran out... but that's just me trying to make sense of it: tbh, I don't think we can really apply logic or anything to this scenario because the writers obviously aren't..!

Ehhhh idk... I sort of get the impression maybe Babs really does just take the 'hot' girls in... which is awful, but she does have that whole uncompromising Mean Girl thing going on, and I've never seen anyone less than Hollywood Ready in her club :\

At this point I'm too confused to even speculate on the meaning of anything. I wouldn't be surprised if they just leave a load of stuff hanging at the end and don't even bother explaining it.